Rapture

[notso]

Order of events:

~ JESUS appears
~ Resurrection & Rapture occur
~ 'Wrath of God' poured out upon the earth (while the saints are all "gathered 'in the air' with Jesus")
~ JESUS and saints go down to the earth as the 1000-year reign of Christ "gets underway"

Resurrected and raptured believers do not return with Jesus. Only angels return with him.

 

[ewq1938]

Resurrected and raptured believers do not return with Jesus. Only angels return with him.

Resurrected believers do return with him:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Psalm1]

You think...


Based on what the Bible really actually says.


My job is to tell you that you have greatly misinterpreted what is written - turning it into something that is BS.

You make a claim.
Prove it.
I will wait.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You make a claim.
Prove it.
I will wait.

Can't prove anything to a closed mind

 

[notso]

Resurrected believers do return with him:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Of course - that's the resurrection! That's NOT Jesus returning with his saints who are angels and NOT resurrected or raptured believers.

There are disagreements over who the "saints" are that Jesus comes back with at his return. Pre-trib believers say it includes resurrected people who were raptured before the tribulation. Some post-trib believers think the resurrection happens while Jesus returns in the clouds after the tribulation, AND the resurrected "saints" then come back down to earth with him as he comes to Armageddon. Both of these theories are false. It's not that difficult to see that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Jesus returns with all his Saints
ZECHARIAH 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives...

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the SAINTS with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all...

First, the righteous dead who will rise at the rapture are all raised on the LAST DAY! not 7 YEARS BEFORE. (John 6:39-40; 6:44; 6:54; 11:24).

Second, it would mean that Jesus has to come at least three times in all, once to suffer and die, once to translate (or rapture) the church before the tribulation, and again on the last day for Armageddon.

Nowhere does scripture teach a third coming of Jesus. On the contrary. The Parousia is mentioned 4 times in Mathew 24 in V.3, 27, 37, and 39.

PAROUSIA is also 'singular' in 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:1), 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 John 2:28). Notice they are all in the singular!

These scriptures show Jesus is coming back with his "saints." The big question is, "who are the saints"?

 

[Psalm1]

Can't prove anything to a closed mind

So true!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So true!

I'm glad you agree. I was talking about you

 

[Psalm1]

It you really went by the Bible you would not be twisting Scripture to conform to what you believe.

Prove it.
Stop doing drive bys, leaving little icons, then hiding.
That would be trolling members.

 

[Psalm1]

I'm glad you agree. I was talking about you

Man up and talk.
Be specific.
Anyone can post put downs and hide.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Man up and talk.
Be specific.
Anyone can post put downs and hide.

Like I said, the only thing you've proven is that you have a closed mind

 

[GaryA]

Like I said, the only thing you've proven is that you have a closed mind

The current compelling question in my mind is - how is he going to prove to us that he has made a real change in his attitude?

 

[GaryA]

It's not that difficult to see that the saints whom Jesus comes back with are ONLY His holy angels.

Angels are not Saints. Saints are not Angels. Saints are born-again children of God. By definition, they can only be human.

 

[GaryA]

You make a claim.
Prove it.
I will wait.

I will wait until I see a real change (for the better) in your attitude.

You are the one who made the original 'claim':

Depends.
Saved....is psat , present, and future.
Postrib rapture adherents claim to never see heaven.
Our future salvation is to heaven.
So in a sense, they will be saved, via their head chopped off.

So - you are the one who needs to 'prove it'.

Care to show all of us biblical/factual proof of all of this?

"I will wait."

 

[Omegatime]

them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

FYI I worked with some language scholars that quoted this scripture could be understood to say----bring up

which sleep in Jesus God will bring up with him

Just sharing some knowledge here

 

[Omegatime]

Saints and angels come from the same root word---holy ones

 

[GaryA]

That does not make them identically the same thing.

A lot of words with different overall meaning come from the same root word.

I believe the Bible shows us "in continuity of context" that Saints are born-again believers in Christ.

 

[Omegatime]

So what I am trying to tell you is the Translators had to pick the correct meaning here. Should the scripture say Saints or Angels

 

[Karlon]

Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! example: someone could get saved in his or her last 10 seconds of life. obviously, there's no time to learn anything. but said person is saved. no rewards in heaven though. & no crowns of righteousness.

 

[GaryA]

So what I am trying to tell you is the Translators had to pick the correct meaning here. Should the scripture say Saints or Angels

These are the verses where the word 'saint' is found. In which of them do you believe the word [really] means 'angels' - especially-and-particularly the New Testament verses? (based on the context)

Deuteronomy 33:2
Deuteronomy 33:3
1 Samuel 2:9
2 Chronicles 6:41
Job 5:1
Job 15:15
Psalms 16:3
Psalms 30:4
Psalms 31:23
Psalms 34:9
Psalms 37:28
Psalms 50:5
Psalms 52:9
Psalms 79:2
Psalms 85:8
Psalms 89:5
Psalms 89:7
Psalms 97:10
Psalms 116:15
Psalms 132:9
Psalms 132:16
Psalms 145:10
Psalms 148:14
Psalms 149:1
Psalms 149:5
Psalms 149:9
Proverbs 2:8
Daniel 7:18
Daniel 7:21
Daniel 7:22
Daniel 7:25
Daniel 7:27
Hosea 11:12
Zechariah 14:5

Matthew 27:52
Acts 9:13
Acts 9:32
Acts 9:41
Acts 26:10
Romans 1:7
Romans 8:27
Romans 12:13
Romans 15:25
Romans 15:26
Romans 15:31
Romans 16:2
Romans 16:15
1 Corinthians 1:2
1 Corinthians 6:1
1 Corinthians 6:2
1 Corinthians 14:33
1 Corinthians 16:1
1 Corinthians 16:15
2 Corinthians 1:1
2 Corinthians 8:4
2 Corinthians 9:1
2 Corinthians 9:12
2 Corinthians 13:13
Ephesians 1:1
Ephesians 1:15
Ephesians 1:18
Ephesians 2:19
Ephesians 3:8
Ephesians 3:18
Ephesians 4:12
Ephesians 5:3
Ephesians 6:18
Philippians 1:1
Philippians 4:22
Colossians 1:2
Colossians 1:4
Colossians 1:12
Colossians 1:26
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Timothy 5:10
Philemon 1:5
Philemon 1:7
Hebrews 6:10
Hebrews 13:24
Jude 1:3
Jude 1:14
Revelation 5:8
Revelation 8:3
Revelation 8:4
Revelation 11:18
Revelation 13:7
Revelation 13:10
Revelation 14:12
Revelation 15:3
Revelation 16:6
Revelation 17:6
Revelation 18:24
Revelation 19:8
Revelation 20:9

 

[GaryA]

So what I am trying to tell you is the Translators had to pick the correct meaning here. Should the scripture say Saints or Angels

So what I am trying to tell you is the Translators had to pick the word that best fit the context of scripture.