Unconditional love verses from God to us the people

[homwardbound]

Dictionaries can be quite meaningful especially when we can pick & choose definitions. For example our friend (cc: @Rufus ) says he has been bold, brassy and audacious:

From M-W & Oxford Languages:

bold: impudent, presumptuous

brassy: sounding like a brass musical instrument; harsh and loud. tastelessly showy or loud in appearance or manner (typically used of a woman).

audacious: showing an impudent lack of respect.


Re: Love, it seems this is a good topic to be harmonized. His Word most certainly shows God's love for all men without condition, and it shows God's love with condition.

When His Word tells us God is Love we should probably sit back and consider that this means we likely understand Love about as well as we understand God.

True Love
1 Cor 13:4-7, that only God Father in risen Son can impute to whoever asks Father. Yet when one or many do not get, what they ask for, mainly life everlasting, since no one wants to die. Yet, it is through willing death one gets new life in God's Spirit and Truth.
When I did not get it, I saw what James said about not getting it. I saw I was wanting to get it, "More power" to spend it on my own flesh pleasures. Kind of like the Corinthians did. Taking advantage of this grace forgiveness, reconciliation for self pleasures. Eating up all the food without any consideration for others in need to eat, not having enough. Drinking up all the wine and got drunk and Debauchery happened in sexual taking from others, whether others agreed with them or not. Did not matter to them, having this thought, Hey, since I am forgiven by God, I can rape, steal, kill others without a care. I'm forgiven, reconciled by God.
Therefore:
Paul wrote to them to straighten out this mess up. Grace was and is not meant to take for granted and harm others over your thought needs. It is to free you to care and share in care in this love and mercy of Son going to that cross willingly for you and all others also 1 John 2:1-4 "The Art of fighting without fighting" Won for us to be won too. He is risen where new life in love to all is given a gift, not of self works, of Daddy's, Father's, PaPa's done work through Son as risen where the new Spirit life is a gift, not earned, it is given thank you Lord
Col 1 and 2 a good read to me, as Father leads not me

 

[homwardbound]

So...in your world the eisegetical method of interpretation is A-OK and Kool, even though scripture explicitly forbids adding our words into any text of scripture; but when I exegete a passage and point out where and how you have gone off the interpretive rails, I'm the one "Straining our Gnats"?

thank you, love you, the same as Daddy, Papa, Father loves us all
You have it as you think.

 

[studier]

I just did by saying "the harmonization is that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed."

I'm not seeing harmonization in what you're saying. I see what looks like an assertion of your view with your language - omni - and then a change to forgiveness and justice.

Why not take one or more of the presented verses and explain how they are indicative of unconditional love?

 

[GWH]

I'm not seeing harmonization in what you're saying. I see what looks like an assertion of your view with your language - omni - and then a change to forgiveness and justice.

Why not take one or more of the presented verses and explain how they are indicative of unconditional love?

Do you deny all of God's other omni-attributes?

Omnilove merely summarizes the pearls in GW which indicate God's love for all, which I trust you know by now (cf. the OP).

And divine love is indeed an aspect of divine forgiveness and justness/righteousness.

If you do not see/believe the truth about God's love, how then will you see/believe what may be said about other things?

 

[Rufus]

I am comfortable with the harmonization that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed.

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you will never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

 

[Rufus]

I am comfortable with the harmonization that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed.

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

 

[Rufus]

I am comfortable with the harmonization that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed.

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

 

[Rufus]

I am comfortable with the harmonization that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed.

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

I just did by saying "the harmonization is that God's love is omni and unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking,
because it provides a logical basis for viewing sinners as self-condemned and God as right
to attain justice in hell before sinful souls are destroyed."

Jesus, in those four Johnanaine passages I quoted yesterday, was talking strictly about the nature of God's love. He didn't talk about conditional forgiveness based on faith. This is so typical of your dishonest tactics! A writer of scripture speaks to one specific topic and because you cannot come up with a reasonable, rational, coherent solution to the contradiction between your unconditional love theory and Jesus' explicit teaching to the contrary, you deflect away from love and talk about forgiveness.

 

[Rufus]

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

 

[studier]

Do you deny all of God's other omni-attributes?

Omnilove merely summarizes the pearls in GW which indicate God's love for all, which I trust you know by now (cf. the OP).

And divine love is indeed an aspect of divine forgiveness and justness/righteousness.

If you do not see/believe the truth about God's love, how then will you see/believe what may be said about other things?

Not much of an answer to my question or the posted verses.

If you're asking if I've ever studied God's essence and how His perfect attributes work together, the answer is, yes.

The posted verses deserve consideration and explanation if someone is going to take a position of what they mean or don't mean.

Re: "omni": It mainly means "all" - so you're saying God is all love or all loving, like He's all knowing-omniscient, etc., but IMO this is arguable. Where I'd be inclined to agree that He is omniscient and the opposite, being ignorant, cannot be applied to Him, it's quite easy from Scripture to find things that Scripture says God hates Ps11:5; Zech8:17; Heb1:9, so all-loving doesn't work IMO.

This does not mean some of the nonsense thrown at you in other posts have standing, but I'd reconsider this "omni" presentation, though it looks like it's pretty deeply rooted. IMO the truth resides somewhere between your omni and others' hatred versions.

 

[Rufus]

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.

 

[Rufus]

thank you, love you, the same as Daddy, Papa, Father loves us all
You have it as you think.

I would "thank you", except for the fact that you have given me no reason to! First, you couldn't define "unconditional". And then you just shrugged off the four Johnanaine passages I quoted out of the Gospel of John; for you didn't even attempt to reconcile your ill-conceived theory with Jesus' teachings in those passages. And to show you just how impoverished you are in terms of actual bible knowledge (as opposed to human traditions), I would like to ask one more question with respect to Jn 16:20; 17:9, which is: Did Jesus use the term "world" in the distributive sense to mean all mankind w/o exception in these two passages?

 

[Rufus]

thank you, love you, the same as Daddy, Papa, Father loves us all
You have it as you think.

I would "thank you", except for the fact that you have given me no reason to! First, you couldn't define "unconditional". And then you just shrugged off the four Johnanaine passages I quoted out of the Gospel of John; for you didn't even attempt to reconcile your ill-conceived theory with Jesus' teachings in those passages. And to show you just how impoverished you are in terms of actual bible knowledge (as opposed to human traditions), I would like to ask one more question with respect to Jn 16:20; 17:9, which is: Did Jesus use the term "world" in the distributive sense to mean all mankind w/o exception in these two passages?

 

[Rufus]

Mr. GWH sir, I have a question for you: Since you speak so glibly of this divine "omnilove", then this must mean that God loves evil as much as he does good, correct? God does love everything under the sun, right?

 

[GWH]

On the other hand, God's saving grace to believe the gospel is an unconditional New Covenant promise. But knowing you, you'll never be able to reconcile the Gospel demands with the unilateral New Covenant terms.



Jesus, in those four Johnanaine passages I quoted yesterday, was talking strictly about the nature of God's love. He didn't talk about conditional forgiveness based on faith. This is so typical of your dishonest tactics! A writer of scripture speaks to one specific topic and because you cannot come up with a reasonable, rational, coherent solution to the contradiction between your unconditional love theory and Jesus' explicit teaching to the contrary, you deflect away from love and talk about forgiveness.

On the contrary, it is you who does not understand God's grace enables volition, which is free to choose either God or Satan.

And I acknowledged that Jesus, in those four Johannine passages, didn't mention conditional forgiveness based on faith by saying that "the harmonization [of those passages with the pearls about omnilove] is that God's love is unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking..."

Regarding your question: God loves evil-doers but not evil, which you would realize if your mind was open to the teaching
of Paul in Romans:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

 

[GWH]

Not much of an answer to my question or the posted verses.

If you're asking if I've ever studied God's essence and how His perfect attributes work together, the answer is, yes.

The posted verses deserve consideration and explanation if someone is going to take a position of what they mean or don't mean.

Re: "omni": It mainly means "all" - so you're saying God is all love or all loving, like He's all knowing-omniscient, etc., but IMO this is arguable. Where I'd be inclined to agree that He is omniscient and the opposite, being ignorant, cannot be applied to Him, it's quite easy from Scripture to find things that Scripture says God hates Ps11:5; Zech8:17; Heb1:9, so all-loving doesn't work IMO.

This does not mean some of the nonsense thrown at you in other posts have standing, but I'd reconsider this "omni" presentation, though it looks like it's pretty deeply rooted. IMO the truth resides somewhere between your omni and others' hatred versions.

It appears that you do not realize that God loves all sinners, not any of the evil they do.
(See what I just posted to Rufus.)

 

[studier]

It appears that you do not realize that God loves all sinners, not any of the evil they do.
(See what I just posted to Rufus.)

The discussion was about God's love only being unconditional. You're not interacting with the Scriptures put forth to you.

 

[GWH]

The discussion was about God's love only being unconditional. You're not interacting with the Scriptures put forth to you.

I interacted, but if you have specific questions, please ask them.

 

[Rufus]

On the contrary, it is you who does not understand God's grace enables volition, which is free to choose either God or Satan.

And I acknowledged that Jesus, in those four Johannine passages, didn't mention conditional forgiveness based on faith by saying that "the harmonization [of those passages with the pearls about omnilove] is that God's love is unconditional,
but His forgiveness is conditional upon faith, which is why Jesus preached repentance and seeking..."

Regarding your question: God loves evil-doers but not evil, which you would realize if your mind was open to the teaching
of Paul in Romans:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

 

[studier]

I interacted, but if you have specific questions, please ask them.

Here are the verses put forth to you. Looking at each one of them, how is it that you see only God's unconditional love?

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
NIV