Does man have a freewill ?
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BTW folks, the ones in Rom 1:18ff are the reprobate vessels of wrath, who can never be saved, Gods purpose for creating them was to partake of His Divine Vengeance and wrath, thats why it starts out with Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Now the vessels of mercy, though they are naturally as sinful and ungodly as these vessels of wrath, the vessels of mercy are at no time partakers of Gods wrath, but always sheltered under His Mercy.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Now the vessels of mercy, though they are naturally as sinful and ungodly as these vessels of wrath, the vessels of mercy are at no time partakers of Gods wrath, but always sheltered under His Mercy.
I mean what Paul meant in his Sermon on Salvation, which you should ponder until it makes sense:
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.
23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).
24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.
25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.
26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.
2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.
3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.
4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).
5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.
6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).
7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.
8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.
9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.
10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.
11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).
12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.
13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.
14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.
15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).
16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).
17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.
18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.
19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.
21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.
22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.
23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).
24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.
25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.
26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
I honestly think you nailed it in your comment, we are told what we believe after we are labeled "whatever". I am not a Calvinist at all, I've never read Calvin, never sat under the teachings of the 5 points, never claimed to be one, never taught from the teachings of Calvinism. Yet here have been firmly labeled one and then told over and over what I believe. Not even saying "I do not believe the exact thing you claim I believe, I believe this....." has ANY effect at all. Not only that they preset these teachings in the most outlandish and cartoonish way possible, in a way I've NEVER heard any die hard Calvinist present it, and then beat this straw man to death like they're actually doing something. There's just no way to have a honest debate with people like this. They seem interested in dividing and staying firmly separate at any cost. A HUGE reason I've come to the conclusion that "those" kinds of "debates" are 1000% useless and do not glorify Jesus at all. I'm not really led to jump into them much anymore. I've been really focusing on my local church and doing the things we are commanded to by Jesus in the church.
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[s verse ize=1]From: John 8 verse 34; 2 Peter 2 verse 19a; Galatians 4 verse 8; Romans 7 verse 14; Ephesians 2 verse 3b; Romans 6:6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [/size]
It is probably difficult at best to come up with a working definition for free will since it is not a Biblical concept.
In the Bible, man is classified as being either a slave to sin or a slave to God, righteousness, and Jesus Christ.
The real issue is whether or not the natural man with his stony heart can receive the Word of God.
Scripture says no. Neither can he comprehend it. He is blinded to the truth, along with the rest of the world.
But those who espouse free will largely contradict and deny these Biblical truths.
While it seems glaringly obvious to others that it is Christ Who sets us free.
In the Bible, man is classified as being either a slave to sin or a slave to God, righteousness, and Jesus Christ.
The real issue is whether or not the natural man with his stony heart can receive the Word of God.
Scripture says no. Neither can he comprehend it. He is blinded to the truth, along with the rest of the world.
But those who espouse free will largely contradict and deny these Biblical truths.
While it seems glaringly obvious to others that it is Christ Who sets us free.
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No "denial of what is explicitly written!" by me concerning 2 Cor 4:3.
Just because I do not believe the gospel is the same as the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7) ... the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9) and which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5) ... the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26) ... does not mean I do not believe what is written in 2 Cor 4:3.
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
You want to claim that the gospel was never revealed to anyone from the beginning of the world until God revealed it to Paul? Have at it ... all I can say to that is (to coin a phrase) "Wow. Such denial of what is explicitly written!"
The one who is "really stretch[ing] the truth beyond recognition" is the one who claims I said the "gospel is not one of the spiritual things of God".
rolleyes ... under that definition of "free willer", you could color yourself a "free willer"
concerning the Scripture referenced in your panel:
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Is it your assertion that the Lord Jeus Christ Who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory ... these things occurred after Paul received the revelation of the mystery revealed in Eph 3:5, Eph 3:9, Col 1:26???
That would be quite a feat as Paul was not born again until after the Lord Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven ... so under your surmisings, Paul received this awesome revelation before he was born again.
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Just because I do not believe the gospel is the same as the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7) ... the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9) and which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5) ... the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26) ... does not mean I do not believe what is written in 2 Cor 4:3.
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
You want to claim that the gospel was never revealed to anyone from the beginning of the world until God revealed it to Paul? Have at it ... all I can say to that is (to coin a phrase) "Wow. Such denial of what is explicitly written!"
The one who is "really stretch[ing] the truth beyond recognition" is the one who claims I said the "gospel is not one of the spiritual things of God".
rolleyes ... under that definition of "free willer", you could color yourself a "free willer"
concerning the Scripture referenced in your panel:
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Is it your assertion that the Lord Jeus Christ Who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory ... these things occurred after Paul received the revelation of the mystery revealed in Eph 3:5, Eph 3:9, Col 1:26???
That would be quite a feat as Paul was not born again until after the Lord Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven ... so under your surmisings, Paul received this awesome revelation before he was born again.
.
concerning the Scripture referenced in your panel:
2 Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
the god of this world is satan and ... 2 Cor 4:3-4 tells us it is satan ... not God ... who attempts to hide the gospel ... God never hid the gospel. God revealed the gospel throughout all Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation. If the mystery which was hid in God from the beginning of the world is the same as the gospel, you've got God in league with satan inasmuch as 2 Cor 4:4 clearly states it is satan who hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.
Scripture also tells us the mystery ...
was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25)
in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:4-5)
hid from ages and from generations, but now made known (Col 1:26)
And according to Eph 3:9, the mystery from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God.
In addition, 1 Cor 2:8 tells us that if satan had known the mystery, he never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ
.
2 Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
the god of this world is satan and ... 2 Cor 4:3-4 tells us it is satan ... not God ... who attempts to hide the gospel ... God never hid the gospel. God revealed the gospel throughout all Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation. If the mystery which was hid in God from the beginning of the world is the same as the gospel, you've got God in league with satan inasmuch as 2 Cor 4:4 clearly states it is satan who hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.
Scripture also tells us the mystery ...
was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25)
in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:4-5)
hid from ages and from generations, but now made known (Col 1:26)
And according to Eph 3:9, the mystery from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God.
In addition, 1 Cor 2:8 tells us that if satan had known the mystery, he never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ
.