Understanding God’s election

Pilgrimshope · 2025-06-20T19:50:17-0400

“Those who believe are given eternal life,

““Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned but has passed from death to life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

those who reject Christ certainly dont have it.”

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;

the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Inquisitor · 2025-06-20T19:53:22-0400

Renewedstrength316 said:

Thanks for raising deep and serious points. This topic demands reverence, not speculation. But as it's written now, your post contains several major theological misunderstandings that must be addressed—because unclear doctrine leads to weak faith and dead mission. Let’s break it down.

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❌ 1. You rightly emphasize human depravity—but wrongly imply that faith is impossible, even after hearing the Gospel.

You're correct that no one seeks God on their own (Romans 3:10–18) and that the natural man cannot accept the things of the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:14). Yes, sinners are enslaved to sin and Satan (2 Tim. 2:26).

But what you fail to clarify is that God uses the Gospel to break that bondage.

> “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.” (Romans 10:17)
“You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)

If man is so dead that he can’t believe, how does faith come at all? Through regeneration by the Spirit—which God accomplishes through the preaching of the Gospel.

> “Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.” (James 1:18)

The Gospel isn’t just information—it’s the very power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). You’ve captured the darkness, but failed to proclaim the light that pierces it.

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❌ 2. You confuse God’s justice with His inability.

You said:

> “God wishes all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.”

That’s dangerously misleading.
God is not restrained by His justice. The cross of Jesus satisfies His justice.

> “He is just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:26)

The reason not all are saved is not because God is limited, but because He chooses to glorify Himself through both mercy and judgment.

> “What if God, desiring to show His wrath and make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy?” (Romans 9:22–23)

God is not “trying His best” to save people and failing. He is sovereignly saving His people through His ordained means—and perfectly judging others in righteousness.

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❌ 3. You make election sound hopelessly exclusive, like only a tiny handful will be saved.

Where did Jesus ever say only a few thousand would be in Heaven? He didn’t.

> Revelation 7:9 — “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne...”

Yes, God chooses. Yes, salvation is for the elect. But the elect are a multitude, not a micro-group. Stop making election sound like a closed door. The real scandal is not that so few are saved, but that any are saved at all.

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❌ 4. You fail to emphasize the Church’s role in preaching the Gospel as God's chosen method of saving the elect.

Election is not a reason to sit back—it’s the very reason we can preach with confidence.

> “I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain salvation.” (2 Tim. 2:10)
“How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?” (Rom. 10:14)

God doesn’t just ordain who will be saved. He ordains how they will be saved: through the preaching of the Word, the prayers of the saints, and the witness of the Church.

When you ignore this, you distort God's design and tempt people into spiritual fatalism.

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❌ 5. You’ve stated things that are true, but you’ve stopped short of the Gospel.

Yes—God chooses.
Yes—man is dead.
Yes—salvation is a gift.

But where is the call to repent and believe? Where is the urgency to preach to the lost? Where is the passion to go into all nations and rescue souls from Hell?

You presented doctrine without mission. Truth without fire. Election without evangelism. That’s not how Jesus taught. That’s not how Paul preached.

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✅ In Summary:

Man is dead in sin.

God elects and regenerates whom He will.

The Gospel is the supernatural power God uses to awaken the elect.

The Church is the chosen instrument for proclaiming that Gospel.

The elect will believe—but only if we preach boldly, clearly, and fearlessly.

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If you want your theology to be biblical, then preach election like Paul:
With a broken heart, bold preaching, and a burning desire to see all men saved (Rom. 10:1).

Don’t hide behind God's sovereignty as an excuse to go silent. It's the very reason we should roar.

> “The Lord knows those who are His.” (2 Tim. 2:19)
But until He gathers them, we proclaim Him to everyone.

Let’s not just quote Romans 9. Let’s live Romans 10.

Your disregarding the background context in the letter to the Romans.

Paul is explaining the failure of the Jews to realize the fulfillment of everything in Christ.

Paul identifies two corporate groups; Israel and the Gentiles.

If you start quoting from Romans 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.

You will be quoting out of the context of why Israel (the covenant people) failed and were severed.

Context, context, context.

rogerg · 2025-06-20T20:13:12-0400

Inquisitor said:

This is the question I asked Chat Gpt.
Using scripture only. Using the context in Romans, i.e., Paul talking to the Jews and narrating the Jewish position in Christ. Romans 8:3, is a continuation from chapter 7:1. Paul is still directly talking to the Jews in chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. So the question arises is Paul directly addressing the Jews in Romans 8:29,30? Please note Romans 11:2 for the definition of, "foreknew".

This is the reply from Char GPT.

Yes, within the context of Romans 7–11, Paul continues to address the Jewish audience directly, and Romans 8:29–30 should be interpreted primarily in that context—namely, the Jewish perspective within the redemptive plan of God. Here's how the argument unfolds using only Scripture and the internal logic of Romans:

1. Paul's Audience in Romans 7–11

Paul opens Romans 7:1 by saying:

“Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?”

This clearly identifies his primary audience in these chapters as those who know the Law—that is, the Jews.

2. Romans 8:29–30 in Context

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…” (Rom 8:29)

To understand “foreknew,” Paul explicitly defines it later in Romans 11:2:

“God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.”

This unmistakably refers to Israel, not all humanity in general. So when Paul says "whom He foreknew" in Romans 8:29, and then later uses the exact phrase again in Romans 11:2 referring to Israel, it's consistent to interpret 8:29–30 as speaking about Israel—those God "foreknew" under the old covenant.

3. Chain of Salvation Applied to Israel

“Whom He foreknew, He also predestined… called… justified… glorified.” (Rom 8:29–30)

This golden chain is not a general soteriological blueprint for individuals, but in this context, refers to God's redemptive plan for Israel, which Paul will unpack in Romans 9–11, particularly how not all Israel is Israel (Rom 9:6), and how there is a remnant according to grace (Rom 11:5).

So in context:

Foreknew = Israel (Rom 11:2)
Predestined to be conformed = Israel’s destiny through Christ
Called = Israel called through the covenants (Rom 9:4)
Justified = Those Jews who respond in faith (Rom 3:30)
Glorified = Their final restoration (Rom 11:26–27)

4. Support from Romans 9–11

Paul continues in Romans 9–11 to develop this argument:

Romans 9:4–5: Speaks of Israel’s privileges
Romans 9:6–8: Clarifies that not all who are descended from Israel are truly Israel
Romans 11:1–2: Reaffirms that God has not rejected Israel whom He "foreknew"
Romans 11:25–27: Speaks of the future glorification of Israel when “all Israel will be saved”

Conclusion

Yes, in Romans 8:29–30, Paul is still speaking primarily to and about the Jews, those whom God “foreknew” as His covenant people (Romans 11:2). The language of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification fits within the ongoing narrative of Israel's corporate journey—from Law to Christ, from hardening to eventual restoration—explained in Romans 7 through 11.

I don't accept CHAT GPT as a biblical authority or a valid source for biblical interpretation, and I sure ain't going to
go through each point it raised to refute them. This is all that anyone needs to know about salvation:
Jesus Christ is God and Savior. Everything else pertaining to becoming saved can be derived and answered from that -
think about salvation with Jesus alone as Savior, when you understand it, get back to me, and we can discuss then.

Pilgrimshope · 2025-06-20T20:14:09-0400

Renewedstrength316 said:

How does god choose ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

doesn’t it seem like this is his selection process ?

“those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. “

or somethhing like this

“Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Are they chosen to do good and be saved and the others are chosen to do evil and suffer wrath ? Or is Paul actually warning some of them ? Because they were judging others and they themselves were sinning also ?

“So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It seems like there’s a selection process that has been announced for ages since the first born man actually

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

just do what’s right and you’ll be accepted cain but if you don’t do what’s right sin is right there waiting to destroy you , ….you must rule over sin …..

Would you say god has told man how to be accepted by him all along ?

“how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.”

how could he have a chosen group yet he doesn’t show favoritism ? How can he be no respector of persons yet choose people based on tbier individual person over another individual person ?

How can he say “ whoever does what is good will be accepted “ whoever does what it evil will not be accepted “ yet only the chosen ones are saved because of his choice and actions and nothing they could do would affect it ?

Renewedstrength316 · 2025-06-20T20:26:10-0400

Inquisitor said:

🚨 CLAIM: "You're quoting out of context. Romans 9–11 is only about corporate Israel and Gentiles."

⚔️ RESPONSE: No, it’s not. That’s a coward’s dodge—an attempt to declaw the most explosive truth in the New Testament:

> God chooses. God hardens. God saves. God damns. And He does it without asking permission.

You want context? Fine. Let’s drag the whole context into the light and watch your argument crumble like paper in fire.

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🔥 1. Romans 9 isn’t about nations. It’s about persons. Souls. Eternal destinies.

> “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad… Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:11–13)

That’s not about two corporate entities. That’s about two individuals in the womb.

Same father. Same mother. Same bloodline. Same covenant.

One chosen. One rejected.

Before they did anything—good or bad.

This isn’t political commentary. It’s terrifying divine precision. You can scream “context” all you want, but you’re not escaping the God who elects before birth.

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🔥 2. Paul anticipates your objection—and rebukes you for it.

> “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!” (Romans 9:14)
“But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” (Romans 9:20)

You’re not the first to choke on this doctrine. Paul knew people would rage at the thought of a sovereign God who chooses one and hardens another.

But he doesn’t soften it. He doesn't apologize.
He doubles down and silences the objector with holy fire.

> “Has the potter no right over the clay?” (v. 21)

Your argument isn’t with me. It’s with the Potter who made you.

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🔥 3. This “corporate election only” garbage is a modern invention to protect human pride.

It’s theology for people who can’t bear a God they can’t control.

You think God electing individuals is unfair? That’s your flesh talking.

But Scripture says:

> “It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” (Romans 9:16)

This destroys every man-made system—free will worship, decisionism, nationalism, universalism, all of it.

God saves whom He will.

And He doesn't need your vote.

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🔥 4. Romans 10 shatters your fatalism. Election fuels evangelism. It doesn’t kill it.

> “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ.” (Romans 10:17)
“How will they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14)

The elect will be saved—but only through the preaching of the Gospel.

God ordained both the ends and the means.

If you use election to excuse silence, you’re not defending context. You’re defying God’s command.

> “I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation...” (2 Tim. 2:10)

Preach. Don’t hide behind “context” while people go to Hell.

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🔥 5. Romans 11 seals the truth you’re trying to escape.

> “There is at the present time a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works.” (Romans 11:5–6)

The whole point of Romans 9–11 is this:
God didn’t fail Israel—Israel failed God. And only a remnant was chosen.

You want corporate election? Fine—within the corporate group, God sovereignly chose individuals.

You can’t twist that. You can’t outrun that.

You can either bow—or break.

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✅ Final Word: This isn't academic. This is eternal.

Those who water down election are not defenders of context.
They are enemies of the cross—ashamed of the God who says:

> “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” (Romans 9:15)

Renewedstrength316 · 2025-06-20T20:30:07-0400

Pilgrimshope said:

Thanks for engaging, but this entire argument—though filled with Scripture—misses the entire message of grace and distorts the Gospel
❌ 1. "God chooses based on who does good."

False. That’s Cain’s religion.

> “If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?” (Gen. 4:7)

Yes, God said that to Cain—but Cain’s “good” wasn’t God’s standard. That’s why God rejected him. Abel brought a blood offering by faith (Hebrews 11:4). Cain brought effort without atonement.

You can’t preach Genesis 4 without Hebrews 11.
And you can’t preach “doing good” without confronting the sinful heart that hates God.

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❌ 2. “Romans 2 shows how God selects people.”

No—it shows how God condemns everyone who tries to earn salvation by works.

> “You, who judge others, do the same things...” (Romans 2:1)
“None is righteous, no, not one.” (Romans 3:10)
“By works of the law no human being will be justified.” (Romans 3:20)

Romans 2 is not a salvation manual.
It’s a trap—to expose every “good person” as guilty before a holy God.
You’re quoting a courtroom speech and calling it a job application.

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❌ 3. “God doesn’t show favoritism, so He can’t choose some and not others.”

Wrong. You’re confusing favoritism with sovereign mercy.

God doesn’t care about race, class, status, or effort.
But He absolutely has the right to choose whom He saves.

> “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” (Romans 9:15)
“It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God.” (Romans 9:16)

You want “fair”? Then all go to Hell.
You want grace? Then you bow and thank God that He saves anyone at all.

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❌ 4. “Revelation says we’re judged by works, so salvation must be by works.”

That’s the Great White Throne Judgment. That’s for the damned.

> “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Those judged by their works? All of them are condemned.

Because works don’t save. They expose the heart.
Only those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life escape wrath.

And when were their names written?

> “Before the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)

That’s not merit. That’s eternal mercy.

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❌ 5. “Acts 10:35 says God accepts those who fear Him and do what is right.”

Yes—but Cornelius wasn’t saved until he heard the Gospel.

> “He will declare to you a message by which you will be saved.” (Acts 11:14)

God honored his hunger—but being devout isn’t enough.

The cross is not optional. Faith in Christ is not a suggestion.
Even the most “righteous” man still needed blood.

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✅ THE TRUTH:

You cannot earn salvation.

You cannot choose God without Him first choosing you.

You cannot rule over sin without a new heart.

And God owes no one mercy.

> “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” (Romans 9:16)
“He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.” (Romans 9:18)

That’s not favoritism. That’s God being God.

---

⚔️ FINAL WORD:

This isn’t about fairness. It’s about worship.

The real scandal is not that God doesn’t save everyone—the scandal is that He saves anyone.

So no more twisting Scripture to protect pride. No more pretending grace is earned.
Bow before the King. Repent. And preach the Gospel the way Paul did—with blood, fire, and truth.

> “To the praise of His glorious grace.” (Ephesians 1:6)

That’s the only selection process that saves.

rogerg · 2025-06-20T20:30:37-0400

Kroogz said:

Can't have true belief unless God first gives that belief (as a gift):

[Jhn 5:38 KJV] 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[1Co 2:5 KJV]
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[Jhn 10:26 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Pilgrimshope · 2025-06-20T21:57:08-0400

rogerg said:

“Thanks for engaging, but this entire argument—though filled with Scripture—misses the entire message of grace and distorts the Gospel”

so the scripture talking about eternal judgement from beginning to the very end of the Bible distorts the message …..,😂 my goodness that twilight zone riff sounds louder here daily

you can go on explaining why Jesus and his apostles have it all wrong but it is t really advisable

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

what if what the Bible says about that is true ? I believe it’s true so we probably don’t have a lot of common ground in this subject

rogerg · 2025-06-20T22:53:59-0400

Pilgrimshope said:

You need to understand that Christ is the Savior not man, and that salvation is given fully and completely to someone only by God's grace through Christ, and not at all by our works or by the keeping of law. Should someone believe that they can earn salvation by the law, then they are the enemy of Christ and grace and commit sin. Ponder what it means that Christ is the Savior and that He alone formed the basis of the gospel.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[1Co 3:11 KJV] 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

Pilgrimshope · 2025-06-21T01:17:57-0400

rogerg said:

“You need to understand that Christ is the Savior not man”

lol exactly so I believe what he said and don’t reject it and pretend there’s some other gracious way god made afterwards …..I’m positive who the savior is so I listen to him

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I don’t pretend gods grace eliminates his word I’m sorry you don’t agree but Gods grace is found in the gospel according to his word

here’s a tip : if you have to reject the things Jesus taught about God and salvation and mankind and eternal judgement….. it’s not Gods grace

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Understanding God’s election

Pilgrimshope

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Inquisitor

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Renewedstrength316

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