Does man have a freewill ?

[Everlasting-Grace]

No it doesn't. You misunderstand the scripture. God isn't obligated to act upon His desires any more than you are. You have desires you do not act upon.

But God does act on his desire

He just does not force people to react to his desire.

Let's apply Isaiah 55:11...God's word going forth always accomplishing what God pleases. Two individuals attend a sermon. One is saved; the other not. Did God accomplished what He pleases?

yes

both heard the word.

One chose to recieve
One chose to remain in believe.

Gods will was fulfilled. John 6 says it is the will of the father that whoever hears and believes will be saved.

Jesus said in John 5 whoever sees and believes shall not come to judgment but has passed from life to death

Gods will was fulfilled
'
the one who saw and believed was saved and no longer condemned

the one who heard and saw and did not believe remain condemned.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand how you came to this conclusion.
There are many events in the bible where men wanted to do something but God said “not so fast there”. Take Acts 9:3-6 as an example, It is clear that Saul wanted to persecute the people of God but was not allowed to carry out his very own will.
So how does this fit into what you are saying? How can we have an entirely freewill, yet God prevent us from doing something?

actually if paul got up and rejected God and continued

I doubt God would not have stopped him, although he may, we should not assume things

 

[Lamar]

The work of God led those who responded to believe from a changed heart of flesh. We know that they had come to faith because they repented and were baptized.

Let me get this right.

God caused certain people to respond to His message and then God caused those certain people that He caused to respond to also respond to His message by believing His message.

God caused those who He caused to respond to also have a changed heart of flesh in order to respond by repenting and being baptized.

So God caused the repenting and the baptisms.

Are the people that God called to respond aware that God is doing this (such as yourself) or can they be under the impression that they had something to do with the decision to respond such as in the Matrix movies?

 

[Cameron143]

The Jews, and their fathers, listening to Stephen, for example:

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The people who ignore the higher powers established by God for another...

"Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Before the corruption of sin, the default setting of man was to follow the Spirit of God. Corruption, on its face, implies a state of purity. Yet, because of sin, that purity was lost for all people.

This is the benefit of salvation in Christ: an incorruptible life that is eternal, which was God's original intent.

So yes, man has the right to resist God. But when they refuse to resist God then they will receive Him. But they do not receive Him in their souls or flesh, they receive Him in their spirit.

Now, this spirit was given to them by God. This is why no one may brag that they have received God in their own efforts: it's only by the spirit of God in them, placed there by God, that they can agree with God.

But again, man may resist God. The Bible even says so. Paul, as Saul, did. The Jews did. And others.

Can God force someone to convert to belief against his or her will? Certainly. We are all His creation. In those cases the issue is typically not about salvation to go to heaven but salvation from the corruption in the world SO THAT he or she may be employed in God's service to bring His word into the earth to others.

All good stuff, but the corruption of man didn't just allow him to resist God or not resist God, every facet of man...heart, mind, and, consequently, will....are corrupted and contrary to God. The statement that all man has to do is cease from resisting God is true, but it is not within fallen man to perform apart from the activity of God. Otherwise, there would be no need for man to be set free in the first place. So while I don't find fault in what you have shared, I don't believe it covers the topic sufficiently.

 

[Magenta]

There is nothing in Scripture indicating that tares can become wheat or that goats can become sheep whereas we all started out as children of wrath prior to our conversion because we are born after Adam and are by nature children of wrath as a result of the choice he made. @NewLifeInChrist

 

[Cameron143]

Let me get this right.

God caused certain people to respond to His message and then God caused those certain people that He caused to respond to also respond to His message by believing His message.

God caused those who He caused to respond to also have a changed heart of flesh in order to respond by repenting and being baptized.

So God caused the repenting and the baptisms.

Are the people that God called to respond aware that God is doing this (such as yourself) or can they be under the impression that they had something to do with the decision to respond such as in the Matrix movies?

When you are under conviction, do you notice?
Of course salvation begins with God, ends with God, and is God throughout. If we aren't saving ourselves, someone else must be doing it.

 

[GWH]

The fact that a man can be tempted to do evil and refuse, indicates free will.

Why is this even a topic for discussion?

If you look more closely you will notice that the topic is not being discussed, but ping-pong is being played.

 

[BillyBob]

I guess my take on that would be that in those cases God didn't make anyone do anything, I'd put it more that God communicated that what they were doing was not good for them, and then they chose to do the right thing. In the example I believe Saul could have ignored God and continued to persecute the church if he had wanted to. If we remember that Saul had an in depth knowledge of the word of God, then being met by the living Saviour basically by divine intervention, then I can totally understand that he would chose to obey.

There are plenty of examples in the bible where people have disobeyed a direct word from God, the most obvious probably being Adam and Eve.

I think God just does what is needed to actually get the message through to people, but it's still up to us to take Gods advice or not. I know that God has to put up literal brick walls in front of me sometimes to make me actually notice and listen because I'm stubborn

Thanks for replying to my question. It gives me a better understanding of your belief.
I'm not sure that I totally agree, but I can better understand why you arrived at your conclusion. Again, thanks.......

 

[TomCullen]

If you look more closely you will notice that the topic is not being discussed, but ping-pong is being played.

Ahh yes, I forget where I am sometimes.

 

[Cameron143]

God


if it did. everyone who ever read the words or heard jesus speak would be saved because they would all come to faith.

God came to Israel. they (as a nation) willingly rejected him, Not because God did not come and draw them, Or give them the words. or show them by what he did, but because they refused to believe.

You assume that it is always God's pleasure to save. But that can't be so because everyone doesn't get saved. But when God's word goes forth, God declared that it always accomplishes as He pleases...Isaiah 55:11. Thus, God's word going forth isn't always to save.

 

[Cameron143]

does God not act on his desire?

I think he does..

The question is, does God always act on His desires? And the answer is easily seen to be no.

 

[Cameron143]

free will? Love?

I don't believe fallen man has free will. Does love exclude people?

 

[Cameron143]

But God does act on his desire

He just does not force people to react to his desire.


yes

both heard the word.

One chose to recieve
One chose to remain in believe.

Gods will was fulfilled. John 6 says it is the will of the father that whoever hears and believes will be saved.

Jesus said in John 5 whoever sees and believes shall not come to judgment but has passed from life to death

Gods will was fulfilled
'
the one who saw and believed was saved and no longer condemned

the one who heard and saw and did not believe remain condemned.

God's word went forth.
1 was saved.
1 was not.
God's pleasure was accomplished in both instances.
Why do you make it about man. From God's perspective, everything happened exactly the way He wanted it to, according to Isaiah 55:11.

 

[Lamar]

How can we have an entirely freewill

Entirely freewill???

No one is making the claim that humans have the ability to actually fulfill what our will desires. Just the capacity to decide to want it.

People here are claiming that we cannot even desire to do right or want to be saved.

Yes, humans have the ability to want anything even the desire to be like God.

 

[Magenta]

The fact that a man can be tempted to do evil and refuse, indicates free will.

Why is this even a topic for discussion?

It becomes a topic for discussion because many people like to pretend that free will is spoken of in the Bible when there's not one verse on the natural man being able to choose of his own volition to believe in God prior to God drawing and enabling him. Conflating man being able to make choices with having a will that is free becomes a glaringly egregious error for those with eyes to see the fact that Scripture proclaims man to be a slave to sin prior to being born again. A slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, inherently hostile in his mind to God, refusing to come into the light, unable to obey, incapable of understanding the spiritual things of God, ... the list goes on and on of the verses that get rejected in favor of choosing to believe man has a will that is free even though it contradicts very much in the Bible. Jesus sets us free.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You assume that it is always God's pleasure to save.

God said it himself. so no I do not assume

But that can't be so because everyone doesn't get saved.

Not because he does not will it..

But when God's word goes forth, God declared that it always accomplishes as He pleases...Isaiah 55:11. Thus, God's word going forth isn't always to save.

lol. Then everyone would be saved.

You seem to be caught in a catch 22..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The question is, does God always act on His desires? And the answer is easily seen to be no.

when it comes to salvation. He does.

yes he is patient. If he always acted on his desire there would be no evil in the world. but he does not remove free will.

He created us to love us.

remove free will. and there is no capacity for us to recieve or understand or react to his love

 

[Cameron143]

God said it himself. so no I do not assume


Not because he does not will it..


lol. Then everyone would be saved.

You seem to be caught in a catch 22..

That's where you misunderstand the difference between God's desire, which does not always come to pass, and God's pleasure in sending forth His word which always is accomplished. There is no inconsistency in these 2 truths.

 

[Lamar]

When you are under conviction, do you notice?
Of course salvation begins with God, ends with God, and is God throughout. If we aren't saving ourselves, someone else must be doing it.

I would love to answer your question but please answer my question first.

Dialogue works better that way.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't believe fallen man has free will. Does love exclude people?

No. thats why he died for the world. Not just a few chosen people.

but Love also allws free will. He does not force his love on people. or force people to recieve his love.

he grants them the ability to reject him

thats what he did in the garden, He granted his creation the ability to reject him by testing them.