Understanding God’s election

[studier]

It means to set a destination beforehand. An admiral who instructs his captains to be at a certain island on a certain date has predestined/predestinated/ predetermined where He wants them to be at that time. However, some may, for various reasons, not be present at the island on that date. That does not mean that the admiral had therefore failed to predestine/predestinate/predetermine them to be there.

Predestination does not per se require foreknowledge.

What say you re: foreknowledge?

 

[studier]

Whenever you get personal in your written assault towards me I understand how much truth really tears you apart.

Good observation. Sad but true.

You only truly attempt to belittle someone whenever they can show validity and Scriptural fact.

Or oppose him in any way. Again, sad but true.

 

[HeIsHere]

Predestination does not per se require foreknowledge.

Are saying that a future event can occur without God having knowledge prior to the event?

 

[Magenta]

From 1 Peter 1 verses 3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Magenta]

Are saying that a future event can occur without God having knowledge prior to the event?

Open theists deny God's omniscience. This is what comes of believing contrary to what the Bible teaches along
the lines of free will, which does not exist, despite your insistence that it does. What the Bible actually teaches
is that the whole world is under the power and influence of the evil one, and some are specifically said to be taken
captive to the will of the devil, which would likely be quite a high number if anyone were to count, and demolishes
the fantasy of free will. Also despite your insistence that the natural man is not such a bad guy after all, being curious
of statistics around it I found these facts last night: globally, there are about 52 deaths per hour from homicide. Wow.
That is close to one murder every minute! The Americas had the highest homicide rate per 100,000 population. Also,
over 370 million girls and women globally, alive today – or 1 in 8 – experienced rape or sexual assault before the age
of 18, that means as children. One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives. Anyways,
those of the world do not include believers in case you want to try to slip that in there.

 

[Rufus]

Whenever you get personal in your written assault towards me I understand how much truth really tears you apart. You only truly attempt to belittle someone whenever they can show validity and Scriptural fact. I was raised on the Tanakh and had privilege to the original language being used to understand the key word meaning based upon the Numerical Values knowing that each Hebrew Letter [22] also equals a numerical number that must match 100%

But in this particular subject all one has to do is read the whole story. Much like saying God hardened Pharaohs heart but you read Pharaoh first hardened his own heart several times and then God made it permanent. But Pharaoh did it free will before God made it permanent. And that's what you hate most. Hence why you have attacked me like you did because I am correct and nothing you can do but throw a hissy fit and call me names

What you wrote in the bolded part is patently false. God hardened Pharaoh's heart first and Pharaoh was perfectly fine with that, proving once again that man's will is perfectly compatible with God's! You truly are ignorant of the scriptures, aren't you? I devoted a post (#12, 725) to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart and thoroughly demolished your theory. It appears you missed it -- probably due to the love affair your nose has with tree trunks.

 

[Rufus]

I haven't seen anyone who opposes your interpretive tradition say that God does not intervene and force certain things to take place in human history. In fact, other non-TULIP traditions have excellent teachings on how God intervened in human history at times to do certain things to direct history as He wills.

The issue is that you're positing these events as substantiating TULIPism's Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men, when:

• Jonah was a Prophet of God Matt12:39; Matt16:4; Luke11:29 and what God did with His Prophet does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
• Abraham:
  • Abraham was in covenant with God and had received many promises from God including Sarah bearing him an [historically important] heir well before Gen20 where Abraham encountered Abimelech. It's estimated that from the cutting of the covenant with Abraham to this encounter with Abimelech was about 14 years.
  • At the Abimelech event God is in covenant with Abraham and protecting him and Sarah to bring about what God has promised him that would ultimately affect us all.
  • Earlier in this thread this situation and Scripture re: Abimelech was discussed including how God interacted with Abimelech assessing his heart, and how God was dealing with Abimelech's kingdom, and how God threatened Abimelech in a dream with death for taking Sarah.
  • As was previously discussed, this does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
• Balaam: the point being made is without Scripture reference and thus too vague.

So, God's ineffectual will is why Jonah finally obeyed God after receiving His second gospel commission which resulted in many [elect] Ninevites being saved?

 

[Rufus]

GWH pong

Actually, in this latest round with your second teaching re: Irresistible Grace, I asked you at first some very simple questions about your confused mess of teaching which you didn't answer at all. It's your typical m.o. to find some excuse not to actually deal with Scripture.

I think it's pretty clear who the master taunter is here as your latest taunt in #14,210 mildly exemplifies. It's all some sense of personal superiority from personal weakness, inability in interpreting Scripture and rather mastering in eisegesis and fallacious argumentation including basic trash-talk. As has been established, you've pretty much been rejected from discussions even within your own camp. It's clear why.

My recommending you don't answer me is both for your own sake, which you're in a sense basically doing already through the mastering of the just stated techniques, but even further for you and for the rest of us to extend this into silencing the nastiness and simply posting from Scripture. I'm happy to respond accordingly.

A very simple "yes" or "no" answer to the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23a would have sufficed, saved bandwidth and everyone's valuable time from having to read your dribble. I'll answer all the questions you want as soon as you find your backbone to answer the rhetorical question.

 

[Magenta]

A very simple "yes" or "no" answer to the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23a would have sufficed, saved bandwidth and everyone's valuable time from having to read your dribble. I'll answer all the questions you want as soon as you find your backbone to answer the rhetorical question.

How can they answer honestly and maintain their delusion of integrity?

Can a leopard change its spots? Can the Ethiopian change the colour of their skin?

Anyone who has any integrity can assuredly answer "NO" to those questions.

 

[lrs68]

What you wrote in the bolded part is patently false. God hardened Pharaoh's heart first and Pharaoh was perfectly fine with that, proving once again that man's will is perfectly compatible with God's! You truly are ignorant of the scriptures, aren't you? I devoted a post (#12, 725) to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart and thoroughly demolished your theory. It appears you missed it -- probably due to the love affair your nose has with tree trunks.

Show me the verse that claims God hardened Pharaohs heart first.

I have all night but if it exists it should only take a few minutes.

 

[Rufus]

How can they answer honestly and maintain their delusion of integrity?

Can a leopard change its spots? Can the Ethiopian change the colour of their skin?

Anyone who has any integrity can assuredly answer "NO" to those questions.

It's not in Studier's heart to answer honestly, especially because of what the only logical answer would do to part "b" of the verse. For all his vaunted "freewill" ability, prowess, powers, etc., he just can't get his HEART to cooperate.

 

[Rufus]

All Salvation is by God's Sovereign Will/Grace Which is the Primary Cause Behind All Men For Obeying the Gospel Truth

Gal 1:15-16
15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
NIV

God effectually called Paul into his kingdom to serve as full time New Covenant minister of the Gospel. And Paul had the same kind of conversion experience Peter did when Jesus told this latter apostle, after his confession of faith, that God alone ultimately revealed this great truth of His identity to him (Mat 16:17).

But Effectual Calling isn't the only aspect to salvation that is effectual!

All men are saved BY God's grace (Eph 2:8-9).

All men are justified freely BY God's grace (Rom 3:24), and not by man's "freewill" decision to believe the gospel.

All God's elect remnant are chosen by His grace (Rom 11:5).

All God's elect are sovereignly appointed BY His grace to believe (Act 13:48).

All men who believe the gospel do so BY God's grace (Act 18:27).

Man's will, in terms of what is the Primary Cause behind man's salvation, is nowhere in sight in any of these passages.

For God's grace supposedly being totally ineffectual per FWers, one must wonder why their god freewill constantly takes a back seat to God's sovereign Will/Grace.

So, FWers, give me one text in scripture that explicitly states that man's "freewill" choice to repent and believe the gospel is the primary, efficacious cause to their salvation.

 

[studier]

So, God's ineffectual will is why Jonah finally obeyed God after receiving His second gospel commission which resulted in many [elect] Ninevites being saved?

God miraculously intervened in history with one of His Prophets to accomplish His will. The Prophet proclaimed the message God sent him to proclaim. The people believed God & turned from their evil way. God repented of the evil (the overthrow of Ninevah) He said He would do to them.

That's basically what we're told. It does not substantiate TULIPism Irresistible Grace in individual salvation.

 

[Rufus]

Show me the verse that claims God hardened Pharaohs heart first.

I have all night but if it exists it should only take a few minutes.

I gave you the post number. If you're too lazy to look it up, that's on you.

 

[studier]

A very simple "yes" or "no" answer to the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23a would have sufficed, saved bandwidth and everyone's valuable time from having to read your dribble. I'll answer all the questions you want as soon as you find your backbone to answer the rhetorical question.

A very simple and repeated response: asked and answered.

I recently even posted a link back to that area of discussion. Your gracious response:

Take your link and stuff it in your ear.

Go back and read the discussion and see if you can understand my answer. If you can't then ask some legitimate questions or better yet pick up some greater context (of which I mentioned some) post the Scriptures and explain them in context and I'll respond to your legitimate attempt to interpret Scripture.

 

[Rufus]

God miraculously intervened in history with one of His Prophets to accomplish His will. The Prophet proclaimed the message God sent him to proclaim. The people believed God & turned from their evil way. God repented of the evil (the overthrow of Ninevah) He said He would do to them.

That's basically what we're told. It does not substantiate TULIPism Irresistible Grace in individual salvation.

God's will is irresistible! Answer this question, Einstein: Whose will prevailed in the Jonah saga: Jonah's or God's? Whose will was done in the story: rebellious Jonah's or God's? And did God send Jonah to Nineveh in vain? Did God's preached Word in Nineveh return to Him void?

 

[Rufus]

A very simple and repeated response: asked and answered.

I recently even posted a link back to that area of discussion. Your gracious response:



Go back and read the discussion and see if you can understand my answer. If you can't then ask some legitimate questions or better yet pick up some greater context (of which I mentioned some) post the Scriptures and explain them in context and I'll respond to your legitimate attempt to interpret Scripture.

I'm just looking for a straight "yes" or "no" answer, which very obviously you cannot give. Why do I need a link to get a simple one word answer? I don't read your equivocating tomes.

 

[Rufus]

I haven't seen anyone who opposes your interpretive tradition say that God does not intervene and force certain things to take place in human history. In fact, other non-TULIP traditions have excellent teachings on how God intervened in human history at times to do certain things to direct history as He wills.

The issue is that you're positing these events as substantiating TULIPism's Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men, when:

• Jonah was a Prophet of God Matt12:39; Matt16:4; Luke11:29 and what God did with His Prophet does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
• Abraham:
  • Abraham was in covenant with God and had received many promises from God including Sarah bearing him an [historically important] heir well before Gen20 where Abraham encountered Abimelech. It's estimated that from the cutting of the covenant with Abraham to this encounter with Abimelech was about 14 years.
  • At the Abimelech event God is in covenant with Abraham and protecting him and Sarah to bring about what God has promised him that would ultimately affect us all.
  • Earlier in this thread this situation and Scripture re: Abimelech was discussed including how God interacted with Abimelech assessing his heart, and how God was dealing with Abimelech's kingdom, and how God threatened Abimelech in a dream with death for taking Sarah.
  • As was previously discussed, this does not establish Irresistible Grace in the individual salvation of all men.
• Balaam: the point being made is without Scripture reference and thus too vague.

Oh, my, my....our make-believe bible scholar doesn't know where to go in the bible to find the Balaam story. Do you know where the OT is in your bible? Do you think you can find the Book of Numbers in it? And I know I'm pushing the envelope here but hey... do you think you could find chapter 22 in that book, Mr. Laziness?

 

[Magenta]

God miraculously intervened in history with one of His Prophets to accomplish His will.

Who? Who? Was it Moses? Abraham? Noah? Isaiah? Amos? Ezekiel? Elisha? Jonah? Habakkuk? Daniel? Jeremiah? Joel? Micah? Paul????

Do tell which ONE it was!!!!

 

[studier]

So, FWers, give me one text in scripture that explicitly states that man's "freewill" choice to repent and believe the gospel is the primary, efficacious cause to their salvation.

There we go, back to the basic lists of TULIP verses to be easily found published on the internet. Back to the throwing stuff on the wall for other to clean up.

The problem here is if someone requests to examine any of these Scriptures verse by verse in context Rufus will distract, divert, respond with fallacious argumentation techniques, and disappear from any such work in Scripture.

Firstly, a look at a couple of the tactics here:

• Rather than "Irresistible Grace" - the "I" in TULIP - some choose to rename it and call it Efficacious Grace. Efficacious is a word that means the ability of something to produce a desired or intended result.
  • This strategic wording sets up an attack against opponents of TULIP who believe man can and does resist God’s Grace.
  • As Efficacious rather than Irresistible, an opponent can now be alleged to be saying God’s Grace does not have the ability to produce God’s desired or intended result.
  • So, opponents to Irresistible Grace are now alleged to be attacking God’s power. So, they are alleged to be attacking God and are thus alleged enemies and haters of God.
  • We can search back through this thread and see all of this taking place.
  • Biblical Grace is not the issue. Irresistible Grace is the issue. Efficacious Grace is the tactic.
• There are no opponents to TULIP on this thread that I can recall who don't believe God by His Grace is the primary cause of man's salvation.
  • Salvation is God's Plan and gift and opponents to TULIP do not think otherwise not do they believe that accepting a gift makes them the giver of the gift, which is some very strange stab at logic used to make an empty allegation.