Poll about how you see predestination/freewill

[Magenta]

Romans 9 verse 18; John 6 verse 44; John 6 verse 65; John 6 verse 37; John 6 verse63; Titus 3 verse5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Melach]

I see very few actually saying they are Arminian, but they have no trouble throwing pejoratives around to labeling people what they are not, as they repeatedly try to smash a square peg into a round hole all while refusing to deal with a plethora of Scriptures that throw over their pet fantasy of free will... a multiplicity of verses from beginning to end of Scriptures that they brush aside, ignore, contradict, and outright deny in preference for their man made tradition and false doctrine. And yes, you are right, some also claim Adam's sin had no bearing on humanity, and they love their knee jerk reactions to the word depravity so they can continue pretending that Arminianism, Molinsim, Calvinism, etc, all teach man's inability = depravity. But, in their theology, the person who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness, who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, just decides of their own volition to believe that which they hear as foolishness, in spite of the fact that their stony heart is not good ground for bringing forth the fruit of faith, and Jesus said a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Oh, well, they care not, they seem to shrug and say, meh, the natural man is not such a bad guy, you have it all wrong, only ancient Israelites were bad guys. Yes, a good look around the world today we can see how good mankind is.... NOT.

PS always lovely to see you!

always lovely to see you as well! it is so true. the teaching of the bible on the subject is easy to understand but hard to stomach for many

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 1 verse 13 ~ He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4 verses 3-4 ~ 2 Corinthians 4 verse 4 ~ Even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the image of God.

 

[awelight]

So, explain it!

So explain which part? Regeneration?

 

[awelight]

Still.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.


There is no predestination to be saved or predestination to the lake of fire in His Word to us.

There is no PREDESTINATION to be saved? How did you arrive at that? What about -

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Jacob and Esau are individual people are they not? Is not Salvation the subject here? Further -

John 17:6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

This verse in our Lord's High Priestly Prayer, should be matched up with this verse for proper understanding.

John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The Father giving and Jesus receiving is one and the same. The subject of Salvation is being discussed in this context and chapter.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[wattie]

I would agree with you, if you mean by "Church", the Universal Church that Christ is building.

For the Church is not a building. It is not an institution. It is not a man or a particular teacher. The Greek word translated Church, would be better translated "ASSEMBLY'. It simply means - where a group of believers come together. This could be anywhere. However, the "Universal Assembly", is every member (Believer), that will make up the completed Assembly of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:4)

Having said the above.. of course Rom. 8:28 is dealing with individuals. Individuals, Predestined to be fitted into that Universal Assembly were placed into His Son, by the Father, before the foundation of the world. All believers are Predestined - O.T. and N.T. believers - who are then Redeemed by Christ's Person and Work.

The confusion for most, in understanding this Doctrine of Salvation, stems not from Predestination or Election but from not knowing what to do with the subject of Regeneration. Most know what Conversion is but few really understand Regeneration and most Churches today do not teach it. I have had Pastors tell me, that they don't teach it because there congregation would not understand it. Sad is it not?

The confusion you have is calling every believer an assembly!

They will be assembled as one.. eventually..but are not assembled yet.

I would agree with you, if you mean by "Church", the Universal Church that Christ is building.

For the Church is not a building. It is not an institution. It is not a man or a particular teacher. The Greek word translated Church, would be better translated "ASSEMBLY'. It simply means - where a group of believers come together. This could be anywhere. However, the "Universal Assembly", is every member (Believer), that will make up the completed Assembly of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1:4)

Having said the above.. of course Rom. 8:28 is dealing with individuals. Individuals, Predestined to be fitted into that Universal Assembly were placed into His Son, by the Father, before the foundation of the world. All believers are Predestined - O.T. and N.T. believers - who are then Redeemed by Christ's Person and Work.

The confusion for most, in understanding this Doctrine of Salvation, stems not from Predestination or Election but from not knowing what to do with the subject of Regeneration. Most know what Conversion is but few really understand Regeneration and most Churches today do not teach it. I have had Pastors tell me, that they don't teach it because there congregation would not understand it. Sad is it not?

The Predestination is of the place for those who believe..not salvation itself.

Heaven preset for all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also.. faithful believers have different rewards to believers who weren't faithful.

That's what is preset..end destinies for those who believed..not preset Heaven or Hell regardless of belief.

 

[awelight]

Any verse for the "before the foundation of the world?"

Ephesians 1:4 does not say you were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Let me quote the verse: "For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love "

Bolded the key part which is, He chose us IN CHRIST. Christ is the elect one to whom we are connected to.

I have to believe that you missed the point of this verse, within it's context. The verse in question - is Eph. 1:4 ---

Eph. 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Let's break this verse down grammatically:
1.) "He chose us" - The "He" here is the Father. The Father chose "US". Who are the "US"? Obviously, the writer is writing to believers in Ephesus. Therefore, the "US" are saved people who are following the Gospel.
2.) "In Him" - The Greek word here: εν - means to place someone or something into another. Such as, by example, "I put this person in my house." Where then is the "person"? The person is "IN" the house. This person is not "with" the house, nor is this person outside the house. Thus, the Father placed "US" (the believers), in His Son to be redeemed.
3.) " Before the foundation of the world" - Which answers the question of when was this done. Before anything was created.
4.) "To be holy and without blemish before Him in love:" - No person can be "HOLY" or "WITHOUT BLEMISH" unless they have received Grace and are in a state of Salvation.

What else did the Father do? Answer -

Eph. 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So the Father "ordained us", beforehand, to be adopted as sons through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. The Father did this for Himself according to the good pleasure of His will; not according to the will of the flesh of men. Again, one cannot become an adopted son of God unless they have already been redeemed.

All of this is being done to the praise of God's glory. His "GLORY" is mentioned three times in chapter 1. Verses: 6, 12, 14. "PRAISE OF HIS GLORY" is the purpose and reason behind everything God does in Salvation.

 

[awelight]

The confusion you have is calling every believer an assembly!

They will be assembled as one.. eventually..but are not assembled yet.



The Predestination is of the place for those who believe..not salvation itself.

Heaven preset for all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also.. faithful believers have different rewards to believers who weren't faithful.

That's what is preset..end destinies for those who believed..not preset Heaven or Hell regardless of belief.

You really didn't read my post at all, did you? Other wise you would have seen this sentence.
The Greek word translated Church, would be better translated "ASSEMBLY'. It simply means - where a group of believers come together.

An "assembly" is a group not an individual.

 

[awelight]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

Hey Magenta, good to see you on the ole' chat. I have been away for several months, so I hope you have been doing well.

 

[Magenta]

Hey Magenta, good to see you on the ole' chat. I have been away for several months, so I hope you have been doing well.

Thank you! I hope you are well, also... I have noticed that you are not here very
often as a rule... certainly much less than you may have been some time ago...

 

[WifeofJordan]

Hey yall, let’s get this poll going I wanna see what you guys are gonna vote. I wont include the "other" option because so many would vote for it, even though they for sure are somewhat close to one of the mentioned views.

thank for this poll. I didn’t know that I believed Calvinism but I do. Good to see I’m not the only one. I would say this because in this case I believe the process to be getting to know God through the unraveling of things but also understanding what free will is and how it takes effect. Maybe? I think this because sometimes you try so hard to encourage another person and it seems impossible. If God intervenes there is possibility. So is that why I believe Calvinism?

 

[Adstar]

The difference between Open theism and the other three isms is due to their different understanding of time. Arminianism, Calvinism and Molinism all begin with a B-Block or B-theory of time, whereas Open Theism begins with an A-Block or A-theory of time. Applying these different theories to the Bible produces different understandings of God and the way He interacts with His creatures.

This is what Google AI summarises as the A-theory vs. the B-theory of time.

"
The A-block view of time, often called "A-theory," holds that the present is a special, unique moment, while past and future are secondary or even nonexistent. In contrast, the B-block view, or "B-theory," treats all moments equally, with the past, present, and future existing on the same footing. The A-theory emphasizes the dynamic, flowing nature of time, while the B-theory views time as a static, four-dimensional block.

A-theory (A-block view):

• Emphasizes the present:
  The present is considered the only moment that genuinely exists, with past and future being either illusions or not existing at all.
  
  
• Focuses on temporal passage:
  A-theorists believe in the "becoming" and "progressing" of time, where the present is constantly changing.
  
  
• Often associated with presentism:
  Presentism, a specific version of A-theory, argues that only the present exists, with the past and future having no ontological reality.
  
  
• May be more intuitive:
  The A-theory's emphasis on the present aligns with our everyday experience of time.

B-theory (B-block view):

• Treats all moments equally:
  The past, present, and future are all considered to exist on the same plane.
  
  
• Views time as a static block:
  Time is seen as a four-dimensional block of space-time, with no privileged moment.
  
  
• May be seen as less intuitive:
  The B-theory's static view of time can be counterintuitive to our everyday experience of time flowing.
  
  
• Often associated with eternalism:
  Eternalism, a specific version of B-theory, argues that all times exist equally. "

T=Open Theists consider the A-theory to correspond with the perspective of time held by the Old and New Testament writers.

Well i don't even want to bother dealing with the confusion you have posted.. Atheroy B theory AI defined theory.. I am a Bible believer and i concentrate on what the Bible says not in what some programed AI says.. The whole A and B theory seems like a very distant side issue of no real importance to the actual doctrines we are discussing..

 

[GWH]

So explain which part? Regeneration?

Yes, as in "The confusion for most, in understanding this Doctrine of Salvation, stems not from Predestination or Election but from not knowing what to do with the subject of Regeneration. Most know what Conversion is but few really understand Regeneration and most Churches today do not teach it. I have had Pastors tell me, that they don't teach it because there congregation would not understand it. Sad is it not?"