Poll about how you see predestination/freewill
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Any verse for the "before the foundation of the world?"
Ephesians 1:4 does not say you were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.
Let me quote the verse: "For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love "
Bolded the key part which is, He chose us IN CHRIST. Christ is the elect one to whom we are connected to.
Ephesians 1:4 does not say you were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.
Let me quote the verse: "For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love "
Bolded the key part which is, He chose us IN CHRIST. Christ is the elect one to whom we are connected to.
I voted for Arminianism because it seems to be the plain meaning of the text. You just read through the Bible and it seems like God knows the future but many times His will is rejected by the people and He commands the people to repent and turn which means He did not predestine everything that occurs and men have some level of free will.
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Many times I have arrived at new perspectives on biblical themes that I have explained to people and been called a heretic, and eventually I have been given a name for my supposed heresy, to discover I had reasoned my way independently through scripture to some perspectives that others had already reasoned their way towards. Kenoticism, Communal Trinitarianism, Open Theism, ....
I found that Greg Boyd apparently has a commentary on Romans. I will listen to this series,
https://www.thedoorsermonarchive.org/div-easter-echoes-empow-esther/exploring-the-book-of-romans
He also has a double volume tome called The Crucifixion of the Warrior King, to make theological sense of the violent representations of God in the Bible, which I have bought off Kindle and read. I highly recommend it. I'm on board with 90-95 % of his conclusions. He deals with Revelation in the second volume.
I found that Greg Boyd apparently has a commentary on Romans. I will listen to this series,
https://www.thedoorsermonarchive.org/div-easter-echoes-empow-esther/exploring-the-book-of-romans
He also has a double volume tome called The Crucifixion of the Warrior King, to make theological sense of the violent representations of God in the Bible, which I have bought off Kindle and read. I highly recommend it. I'm on board with 90-95 % of his conclusions. He deals with Revelation in the second volume.
Ya sure?
Romans 8:29
New International Version
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:30
New International Version
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
New International Version
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Romans 8:29
New International Version
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:30
New International Version
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5
New International Version
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
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He Chose us In Christ. I agree. He's still choosing us. Even in the verse after it, it says "he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." I believe Paul is referring to salvation when He refers to our adoption (Christ wasn't adopted, He is the eternal Son whom has existed in eternity past, present, and future). If God wasn't in control of who and who isn't saved, then God wouldn't be completely sovereign, and also, no one would get saved. Who might Paul be referring to when He says "us"? He is referring to the elect, those predestined to adoption as sons through Him. I am curious though, what do you find troubling about the doctrine of divine election? Do you believe it takes away our free will? Or is it something else?
Some of what you said is right and some of what you said is wrong. Arminianism is directly in conflict with scripture. I believe all have free will (the ability one has to choose what one wants). His will is rejected constantly by His people every time we sin, but it doesn't mean that God didn't plan this already in His sovereign will. Maybe you have never heard this before. God has a moral will and a sovereign will. If you do not know what these are, I can explain them to you.
Do you believe that we have free will, in the sense that each person has the ability to choose what one desires? I believe all are, before God's effectual grace is displayed in their lives, are not even able to choose God for they are not even able to choose to not sin. Does this negate free will? No.
What exactly are you getting at? Those who are born again are the elect. The elect are chosen according to God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge includes the sacrifice of His Son. If Jesus had not died and rose again, there would be no elect.
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
My name was written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. God foreknew that I would accept Christ, given the opportunity. I am glad about that. I did not find God. He is not lost. I was lost and Jesus came and found me.
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
My name was written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. God foreknew that I would accept Christ, given the opportunity. I am glad about that. I did not find God. He is not lost. I was lost and Jesus came and found me.
Just using this verse for my example of something that I was thinking about and kind of let my mind wonder a bit into a view that I am not sure what to think about it.
But give me a second here and let me explain it to you and you see how it reads to you.
For those God [[FOREKNEW]] = we know in Ephesians this is talking about ((before)) the foundation of the world how we would be in Jesus. That Jesus was the Plan before Creation began to how those who are and would be saved got saved.
But let's go back to Romans 8:29 {for THOSE God FOREKNEW}.
Before we were born.
Before we had a mother and dad.
Before we were conceived.
Before we were a twinkle in our parents eyes.
Possibly even before the foundation of the world.
God FOREKNEW us.
There's no Scripture to back this or to even verify it, but what if we were [spirit's] in Heaven awaiting to become human beings? Heaven was already our home and once we were placed into a human body it was our duty to reconnect back to God. But our natural human being, the flesh, opposes God and wants nothing to do with God so it won't go and seek God. But the moment God manifests Himself to us, our [spirit], the one that existed in Heaven, becomes the driving force that causes us to submit\yield to God and reconnect to the ONE that FOREKNEW us.
Not sure why I thought this but one day it just entered into my mind and I entertained it until I started thinking to myself could this be true? 🤣 🤣
Not sure I can vote. I believe that God sent His son to die for every man, woman and child and that we all have freewill to choose Christ or reject Him; so "Calvinism" is out. I also believe that once a person is saved, he's saved forever so, "Arminianism" is out. I believe God is the Alpha and Omega, inhabits eternity, and knows the ending and the beginning of everything so, "Open Theism" is out. And I'm not quite sure what "Molinism" is; apparently an attempt to reconcile God's sovereignty with man's freewill. My take is that, whether good, or bad I have to say that I'm a simple-minded man: I believe that it is/was God's divine sovereign will to give mankind freewill. How hard is that?
There is nothing in the doctrine of divine election that I find troubling, nor is it the lack of free will that troubles me. Whats my biggest issue with it is that it turns God into the biggest sinner. God is infinitely worse than the devil in the calvinist scheme of things.
If everything is predestined, that means that God is merely playing games with people when He calls them to repent, knowing the only reason they dont is because He is witholding the gift of repentance and faith. God then punishes for people even though they could not do otherwise. I realize the counter arguments to it, the verses about who are you oh clay to talk back to God etc. But according to Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay thing works completely the opposite of the way calvinists teach it.
If everything is predestined, then God in eternity past decided to decree all the rape killing and torment that happens in this world, all for His "glory"? That is not the God I see in the Bible.
SO in conclusion: My issue isnt with the divine election doctrine, as much as it is with the side product of: Everything is predestinated
If everything is predestined, that means that God is merely playing games with people when He calls them to repent, knowing the only reason they dont is because He is witholding the gift of repentance and faith. God then punishes for people even though they could not do otherwise. I realize the counter arguments to it, the verses about who are you oh clay to talk back to God etc. But according to Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay thing works completely the opposite of the way calvinists teach it.
If everything is predestined, then God in eternity past decided to decree all the rape killing and torment that happens in this world, all for His "glory"? That is not the God I see in the Bible.
SO in conclusion: My issue isnt with the divine election doctrine, as much as it is with the side product of: Everything is predestinated
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A triplicity of Gd's will is not explicitly stated in Scripture, but we know God's moral will for our lives
through His commandments, more specifically for the Christian, the ten commandments minus the
Sabbath, for Jesus is our Sabbath rest. As believers, we should all be able to recognize His sovereign
will. And alongside God's sovereign will is His permissive will, for He allows man to make choices
based on their own will which is naturally opposed to God's.
through His commandments, more specifically for the Christian, the ten commandments minus the
Sabbath, for Jesus is our Sabbath rest. As believers, we should all be able to recognize His sovereign
will. And alongside God's sovereign will is His permissive will, for He allows man to make choices
based on their own will which is naturally opposed to God's.
Denial of Original Sin: Pelagians reject the idea that Adam's fall caused a corruption of human nature. They believe
that each individual is born with the ability to choose between good and evil, and that sin is a purely voluntary act.
Emphasis on Free Will:
Pelagians emphasize the power of the human will in achieving righteousness and salvation. They
believe that humans can choose to live a virtuous life and avoid sin through their own efforts.
Rejection of Grace:
This view contrasts with the dominant doctrines of grace, which emphasizes that humans need God's grace to overcome sin and achieve salvation. Pelagians minimize the role of grace, suggesting that humans could achieve perfection through their own efforts.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
that each individual is born with the ability to choose between good and evil, and that sin is a purely voluntary act.
Emphasis on Free Will:
Pelagians emphasize the power of the human will in achieving righteousness and salvation. They
believe that humans can choose to live a virtuous life and avoid sin through their own efforts.
Rejection of Grace:
This view contrasts with the dominant doctrines of grace, which emphasizes that humans need God's grace to overcome sin and achieve salvation. Pelagians minimize the role of grace, suggesting that humans could achieve perfection through their own efforts.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18
Denial of Original Sin: Pelagians reject the idea that Adam's fall caused a corruption of human nature. They believe
that each individual is born with the ability to choose between good and evil, and that sin is a purely voluntary act.
Emphasis on Free Will:
Pelagians emphasize the power of the human will in achieving righteousness and salvation. They
believe that humans can choose to live a virtuous life and avoid sin through their own efforts.
Rejection of Grace:
This view contrasts with the dominant doctrines of grace, which emphasizes that humans need God's grace to overcome sin and achieve salvation. Pelagians minimize the role of grace, suggesting that humans could achieve perfection through their own efforts.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
that each individual is born with the ability to choose between good and evil, and that sin is a purely voluntary act.
Emphasis on Free Will:
Pelagians emphasize the power of the human will in achieving righteousness and salvation. They
believe that humans can choose to live a virtuous life and avoid sin through their own efforts.
Rejection of Grace:
This view contrasts with the dominant doctrines of grace, which emphasizes that humans need God's grace to overcome sin and achieve salvation. Pelagians minimize the role of grace, suggesting that humans could achieve perfection through their own efforts.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, + 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).
(Psalm 51:4-6)
This is not to be taken literally but should be understood to mean that "we sin as soon as we are capable of thought and choice.
When David said he was "evil at CONCEPTION" we are not to take this literally since the prophets and Jesus Himself said that children are INNOCENT. We become sinful as soon as we become capable of understanding and choosing. Jesus said of children:
(Luke 18:15-17)
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
(Matthew 18:2-5)
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are CONVERTED AND BECOME LIKE CHILDREN, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven
(Matthew 19:13-14)
By contrast, Reformed teacher Voddie Baucham has called human infants "children vipers in diapers." Who is right Jesus or the Reformed teachers?
The Bible speaks clearly that infant which die at birth are INNOCENT
"In the Old Testament, the shedding of innocent blood is explicitly condemned and is often associated with acts of violence, murder, and injustice. The law given to Israel through Moses underscores the gravity of such acts. In the Old Testament, the shedding of innocent blood is explicitly condemned and is often associated with acts of violence, murder, and injustice. The law given to Israel through Moses underscores the gravity of such acts
(Deuteronomy 19:10).
A Parallel passage to this is Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Do the unborn or newly born literally GO ASTRAY at birth, speaking lies? I admit I never saw a newborn infant speaking.
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The Context. Context.
THOSE(the Church) whom He foreknew.
He is Not talking about Kroogz specifically. (we both know He could)
Kroogz believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation......As a part of the Church, I am predestined to be conformed to His image++++++
It is not about our specific salvation, that is what the calvies want us to believe.
THOSE(the Church) whom He foreknew.
He is Not talking about Kroogz specifically. (we both know He could)
Kroogz believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for His salvation......As a part of the Church, I am predestined to be conformed to His image++++++
It is not about our specific salvation, that is what the calvies want us to believe.
So you take it as some kind of limitation on God's power that He is unable to create living creatures who are able to make decisions only when controlled by God? If that is true, did not God Himself make man unable to make man that way - even though the Bible treats man AS IF he were able to either reach for help or reject God's word has at least the appearance of giving men choices AS IF HE HAD FREE AGENCY. However, for the first four centuries the Christian teachers believed people could make freewill choices.