Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

From whence did you come up with this stupid idea that God makes random choices!? Don't you know that His choices are always grounded in his purposes (Rom 9:11)?

Nice swerve but what about all those scriptures like this one you didn’t seem to notice or think made a point ?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭

is this true ? Is that how gods going to give eternal life and direct his wrath come judgement ? If it is how then is it about God choosing favorites by his secret divine will ?

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,

and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬

Again it seems to be about what they did not a secret lottery pool that no one can grasp

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It seems we’re meant to seek him out and believe that he is a rewarder of those who seek him diligently

““Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12‬ ‭

It seems like your avoiding the point I feel is pretty evident God doesn’t choose favorites he’s trying to bring us to repentance so we can have our sins remitted and we don’t perish

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

But we keep saying “I’m secretly chosen and elected I’m one of his favored few so I’m already saved I’ve been saved from the beginning never was condemned I was chosen I don’t have to be judged it’s all his divine plan I don’t need to repent and do good because I’m already saved ect “

hes actually saying to all creation “ repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved ……he’s saying it because all is lost without that saving grace of the gospel

 

[Rufus]

Nice swerve but what about all those scriptures like this one you didn’t seem to notice or think made a point ?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭

is this true ? Is that how gods going to give eternal life and direct his wrath come judgement ? If it is how then is it about God choosing favorites by his secret divine will ?

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,

and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬

Again it seems to be about what they did not a secret lottery pool that no one can grasp

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It seems we’re meant to seek him out and believe that he is a rewarder of those who seek him diligently

““Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12‬ ‭

It seems like your avoiding the point I feel is pretty evident God doesn’t choose favorites he’s trying to bring us to repentance so we can have our sins remitted and we don’t perish

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

But we keep saying “I’m secretly chosen and elected I’m one of his favored few so I’m already saved I’ve been saved from the beginning never was condemned I was chosen I don’t have to be judged it’s all his divine plan I don’t need to repent and do good because I’m already saved ect “

hes actually saying to all creation “ repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved ……he’s saying it because all is lost without that saving grace of the gospel

Your foundational premise (random choices) is entirely false -- not one iota of biblical truth to it. Your premise is just another in a long list of such straw men! And you FWers make that premise based upon your finite, fallible, superficial understanding of God's Word. This is why I didn't bother with the other scriptures. Since you, evidently, cannot understand a text like Rom 9:11 or even Job 23:14, then why would I presume you understand the passages you quoted?

 

[Magenta]

Again it seems to be about what they did not a secret lottery pool that no one can grasp

Hebrews 11 verse 6

 

[Magenta]

Romans 16 verse 16, Titus 3 verse 3, John 8 verse 34 ~ Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures. Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hebrews 11 verse 6

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24-27‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Your foundational premise (random choices) is entirely false -- not one iota of biblical truth to it. Your premise is just another in a long list of such straw men! And you FWers make that premise based upon your finite, fallible, superficial understanding of God's Word. This is why I didn't bother with the other scriptures. Since you, evidently, cannot understand a text like Rom 9:11 or even Job 23:14, then why would I presume you understand the passages you quoted?

You just keep avoiding the point and arguing

true or not true ?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭

 

[Rufus]

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24-27‬ ‭

Do you see what I just bolded in red? The term rendered "should" denotes obligation or duty. And this is what all the commands in the bible do -- they express moral/spiritual obligation, not ability. After all, NO ONE seeks after God (Rom 3:11)! If sinners freely sought after God, there would be no reason for Him to enable any sinner to come to Christ (John 6).

 

[Magenta]

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Matthew 6 verses 31 plus 33 Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

 

[Magenta]

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that
asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Matthew 7 verses 7-8 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

[Magenta]

“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:24-27‬ ‭

Acts 17 verses 26-27 ~ From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

 

[Rufus]

You just keep avoiding the point and arguing

true or not true ?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭

I avoid your passages because your foundational premise is unbiblical. God does nothing that is random or arbitrary.

But I'm glad you quoted the Rom 2 text because GWH was NOT ABLE to provide me with what the basis would be for divine favoritism when God chooses many to be saved instead of all. Maybe you can do better than GWH has?

 

[Magenta]

I avoid your passages because your foundational premise is unbiblical. God does nothing that is random or arbitrary.

The concept of God as random or arbitrary contradicts the idea Him being/possessing perfect knowledge, wisdom, and goodness.

But free willers say things like God is not fair, so... just more to add to the long list of things they believe which are not Biblical.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I avoid your passages because your foundational premise is unbiblical. God does nothing that is random or arbitrary.

But I'm glad you quoted the Rom 2 text because GWH was NOT ABLE to provide me with what the basis would be for divine favoritism when God chooses many to be saved instead of all. Maybe you can do better than GWH has?

naw I can’t really discuss with people who ignore what the Bible has to say

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The concept of God as random or arbitrary contradicts the idea Him being/possessing perfect knowledge, wisdom, and goodness.

But free willers say things like God is not fair, so... just more to add to the long list of things they believe which are not Biblical.

“the long list of things they believe which are not Biblical”

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Biblical ?

 

[Magenta]

“the long list of things they believe which are not Biblical”

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Biblical ?

God being arbitrary? God being unfair? No.

 

[Cameron143]

“the long list of things they believe which are not Biblical”

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬


Biblical ?

A better translation is that God is no respecter of persons. It has to do with how God chooses. That is, God chooses without respect to what is true of an individual. There is nothing of value in any individual that will ever merit God choosing them. In other words, God simply chooses because He chooses to. The impetus is solely from God and based only in God's desire.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A better translation is that God is no respecter of persons. It has to do with how God chooses. That is, God chooses without respect to what is true of an individual. There is nothing of value in any individual that will ever merit God choosing them. In other words, God simply chooses because He chooses to. The impetus is solely from God and based only in God's desire.

“A better translation is that God is no respecter of persons. It has to do with how God chooses. That is, God chooses without respect to what is true of an individual. “

Yeah that’s why it comes at the end of Paul’s explaination that everyone’s going to be judged exactly the same way sure makes sense lol brother it explains exactly how he’s going to “ choose “

Look how you’ve removed the end of what’s being said and explained it to mean a totally different thing

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath ( god isn’t doing it and hasn’t already determined it they are doing it to themselves ) against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;( that’s how god “ chooses who will have eternal
Life and who will suffer wrath “)

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul just finished explaining what he’s talking about bro lol nice one ! He’s saying god doesn’t favor anyone over the other regardless of who you are but everyone will be judged the same way

that’s why we have to accept the gospel ……..

 

[Cameron143]

“A better translation is that God is no respecter of persons. It has to do with how God chooses. That is, God chooses without respect to what is true of an individual. “

Yeah that’s why it comes at the end of Paul’s explaination that everyone’s going to be judged exactly the same way sure makes sense lol brother it explains exactly how he’s going to “ choose “

Look how you’ve removed the end of what’s being said and explained it to mean a totally different thing

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath ( god isn’t doing it and hasn’t already determined it they are doing it to themselves ) against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;( that’s how god “ chooses who will have eternal
Life and who will suffer wrath “)

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul just finished explaining what he’s talking about bro lol nice one ! He’s saying god doesn’t favor anyone over the other regardless of who you are but everyone will be judged the same way

that’s why we have to accept the gospel ……..

The...no respecter of persons...is not in reference to anyone's behavior, but to...the Jew first, and also the Gentile...
In other words, there is no difference in the way God deals with any division of people. All will be dealt with in the same fashion.
The warning itself is what it is, and it applies to all equally.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God being arbitrary? God being unfair? No.

I’m asking is what Paul is teaching there in the Bible , biblical ? Or are we determining independently what’s “ biblical ?”

Is this biblical ?

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is this ?

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

is this biblical stuff sis ? Quotes from the Bible we might not want to hear ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

biblical or not ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭

biblical ?

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

maybe disagreeing with something or. Ot knowing about it doesnt make it “ unbiblical “ but maybe we just can’t accept it yet

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The...no respecter of persons...is not in reference to anyone's behavior, but to...the Jew first, and also the Gentile...
In other words, there is no difference in the way God deals with any division of people. All will be dealt with in the same fashion.
The warning itself is what it is, and it applies to all equally.

Yeah we should definately not read what Paul was saying lol we should pluck it from context,,,, ignore what he was saying ….and then explain why it’s not really what he said …..gotcha !

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

yep totally un connected i probably need you to write explainations for every verse so i don’t just learn what Paul’s saying and believe that and end up agreeing with the same thing Jesus and the other apostles said lol

nothing to do with anyones behavior brother got it 😂😂. Sorry , sorry I think this part threw me off…. I don’t know how I missed that it’s not about anyone’s behavior ….

“you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

how could I think such unbiblical things I guess 😂😂I don’t know . I better stop studying tbat darn Bible I’m learning all the wrong things because I don’t speak ancient Greek hahahaha wow this place is a doozy