Matthew 24:40 Is the rapture secret?

[randyk]

Rapture is caught up to heaven.
You know how all those caught up went to heaven.
But postribbers need that modified, as their doctrine insists that,in the rapture, nobody goes to heaven.

That is incorrect, and you should know it. I've been a Postribber for many, many years, and I've always believed that when Christ comes again, he will have his angels seize the saints still alive in the midst of Armageddon, and glorify them in the clouds in an instant. At the same instant, we will return with Christ to set up God's heavenly Kingdom on earth in the form of a Millennial Kingdom, which is preliminary to the establishment of New Jerusalem permanently on earth.

 

[ewq1938]

No need to make silly remarks, just read the passage. It is quite clear the "them" that the flood takes away are the unbelievers, not those in the Ark and Jesus said it will be like that when He returns. His Coming will be like a flood that removes the wicked from the Earth. The passage is clearly referring to the Second Coming, not the Resurrection of the Church (Rapture).

Water also makes a boat move so they were also carried away but in a safe manner.

 

[sawdust]

Water also makes a boat move so they were also carried away but in a safe manner.

Read the passage and ask yourself "who is the "them" referring to, the people on the Ark or the people eating and drinking etc?"

Be honest and you might stop embarrassing yourself.

Matt.24"38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[Mem]

Scripture says that those alive at the time of the resurrection will not precede those who have died, and all of it will happen in a twinkling of an eye. Well, eye twinkles happen pretty quickly and, even if the events are separate and happen in some sequence rather than simultaneously, there's no reason to think the resurrection of the dead doesn't happen within a similar twinkle. So, there are two twinkles in the same momentary frame of light. This is the first resurrection which puts on incorruptible which even the dead do (I mean, what's more 'corrupted' than the dead?), and this putting on the incorruptible is comparative to entering the ark in Noah's time, when 8 souls where saved 'out of the water.' Well, again, they were 'in the water' for 40 days and 40 nights, and 'kept' in the water by a water resistant (incorruptible) vessel... This time, the wicked won't be taken away by water, they'll be taken away by fire, and those that remain, those who are left, will have done so by having been given an incorruptible vessel.

I keep missing how the rapture and the resurrection is not the same event.

 

[ewq1938]

Read the passage and ask yourself "who is the "them" referring to, the people on the Ark or the people eating and drinking etc?"

Be honest and you might stop embarrassing yourself.

The wicked were not the only ones taken away that day. Some drowned, some did not but the flood waters took all of them away.
Entering the Ark is akin to those who will be raptured. After that the one left outside the Ark/not raptured will be slain in the flood of God's wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

This time, the wicked won't be taken away by water, they'll be taken away by fire,

Not by fire.

and those that remain, those who are left, will have done so by having been given an incorruptible vessel.

Yes, very good connecting. The immortal body is received before the wrath of God (like a symbolic flood) happens.

I keep missing how the rapture and the resurrection is not the same event.

Yeah most seem to think they are the same event but the resurrection happens before the rapture.

The resurrected are not raptured.

The raptured are not resurrected.

Or, in other words:

Only the dead are resurrected.

Only the living are raptured.

 

[Mem]

Not by fire.




Yes, very good connecting. The immortal body is received before the wrath of God (like a symbolic flood) happens.




Yeah most seem to think they are the same event but the resurrection happens before the rapture.

The resurrected are not raptured.

The raptured are not resurrected.

Or, in other words:

Only the dead are resurrected.

Only the living are raptured.

The narrative covers both events and calls it 'the first resurrection,' where these two groups are 'gathered together.' And I don't have photographic memory of book and verse, but I do have a succinctly formed idea that because of the promise signified by the rainbow, this (final) cleansing will be by fire. I think my memory scan almost had the exact words or exact context where this is located so I'll retrieve it once that comes to me more distinctly. Possibly after a cup of coffee to allay this migraine that sip of Moscato brought me.

 

[sawdust]

The wicked were not the only ones taken away that day. Some drowned, some did not but the flood waters took all of them away.
Entering the Ark is akin to those who will be raptured. After that the one left outside the Ark/not raptured will be slain in the flood of God's wrath.

You're still not getting it. Matthew 24 is not the Rapture, it is the Second Coming. The Rapture is the resurrection of the Church which has already occurred. No-one is being Raptured at this time.

Entering the Ark is akin to being in Christ (saved). When He returns, He will gather Israel, remove the wicked and establish His Millennial rule on Earth.

You appear to have the Earth completely vacated with both the wicked being removed and believers being taken to heaven. You've left no-one here except Christ to rule over nobody.

 

[Randy4u2c]

The bottom line of Math 24 is that Satan will come to earth before Jesus pretending to be him. God's elect will be delivered up before the synagogue of Satan to testify against him and expose him as an imposter. After the tribulation of Antichrist (Satan impersonating Jesus), then the true Christ will return. The first one taken is deceived into worshipping Satan thinking he is God. Those left behind are the ones that know Satan is a fake and stand against him. Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. Satan come first at the 6th trump.

 

[randyk]

Scripture says that those alive at the time of the resurrection will not precede those who have died, and all of it will happen in a twinkling of an eye. Well, eye twinkles happen pretty quickly and, even if the events are separate and happen in some sequence rather than simultaneously, there's no reason to think the resurrection of the dead doesn't happen within a similar twinkle. So, there are two twinkles in the same momentary frame of light. This is the first resurrection which puts on incorruptible which even the dead do (I mean, what's more 'corrupted' than the dead?), and this putting on the incorruptible is comparative to entering the ark in Noah's time, when 8 souls where saved 'out of the water.' Well, again, they were 'in the water' for 40 days and 40 nights, and 'kept' in the water by a water resistant (incorruptible) vessel... This time, the wicked won't be taken away by water, they'll be taken away by fire, and those that remain, those who are left, will have done so by having been given an incorruptible vessel.

I keep missing how the rapture and the resurrection is not the same event.

Yes, the Resurrection and the Rapture are indeed the same event. We are told that again and again. And all the references go back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man returns from heaven to save his people, Israel. Jesus told the same story. Paul adds the international Church to this rescuer of God's People.

So, the 2nd Coming is for Salvation. In Jesus' day, the Romans were coming to "take some" and *leave some,* both groups being under judgment by the Romans. Those taken away were being deported into exile. Those left were left to serve as slaves for the Romans to maintain the fields and the harvests for the Romans.

But just as the Flood took away the wicked in Noah's day, and just as the Romans took away the Jewish rebels in Jesus' day, so also the Son of Man is coming on the clouds to take away the abusers of Israel and the abusers of the international Church.

The notion of Jesus returning, seizin his Church, glorifying them, and these things all taking place in a moment is true. 1st, it is encumbent upon us to become like Jesus in order to return with him. Since he was glorified after he was taken up to heaven, so also we must be glorified in heaven in order to be like him and return with him.

But it isn't so much a U Turn that we make when going to heaven and returning as an instantaneous event, describing the glorification of the Church as synchronizinh with Christ's Return. In order to return with him from heaven we must instantly be in heaven in order to return with him. We are intrinsically linked to Jesus, and so it is we must return directly with him.

The glorification event is instantaneous and originates from heaven. And so, we are instantly there so that we may return with Jesus. Calling this a "U Turn" ignores the reason for the description and focuses on externals that really have no bearing.

 

[sawdust]

Yes, the Resurrection and the Rapture are indeed the same event.

The Resurrection of the Church and the Rapture are the same event but not all believers are resurrected at the same time. Believers are resurrected each according to their own order/class/set/company.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Have not read past the first page...

My question is - why would anyone think that the description in this verse necessitates anything "secret" about it?

Why would it not happen "in the open" where anyone/everyone would see it clearly and plainly right in front of them?

Why do people want to imagine something that it does not specifically say - and somehow superimpose it onto the words?

This is a dangerous way to interpret scripture. No wonder there are so many variations - all based on the imagination of people.

 

[GaryA]

The idea that the rapture delivers people up to [the 3rd] heaven is yet another illustration of assumption-by-imagination. Nowhere in scripture does it say this. What it says is:

1 Thessalonians 4:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"to meet the Lord in the air" - that is as far up as anyone goes at the time of the rapture. (or any time soon thereafter)

 

[GaryA]

That is incorrect, and you should know it. I've been a Postribber for many, many years, and I've always believed that when Christ comes again, he will have his angels seize the saints still alive in the midst of Armageddon, and glorify them in the clouds in an instant. At the same instant, we will return with Christ to set up God's heavenly Kingdom on earth in the form of a Millennial Kingdom, which is preliminary to the establishment of New Jerusalem permanently on earth.

Just FYI - Armageddon takes place during the range/space of time of the 'event' that we call the 'Wrath of God' - which occurs after the resurrection-and-rapture has already taken place fully-to-completion.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The 'them' in verse 39 is absolutely most certainly referring to those who died in the flood.

However, the meaning of this is not something that directly fits into the taken-and-left issue.

It is not talking about separating those who died from the 8 who did not - the Ark did that.

It is simply referring to the flood waters killing them all. And, that is all it is referring to.

They were not "removed" from the earth. They were simply "taken away" by the flood waters - and died in the process...

 

[GaryA]

Please be careful not to argue the taken-and-left issue without taking into account the context of every related verse/passage - the order of which is not a constant found in all such verses/passages.

Do not argue that the order of 'taken' and 'left' in one passage governs what is said in another passage - it does not work that way. The order is defined in the passage where it is described.

 

[Mem]

Yes, the Resurrection and the Rapture are indeed the same event. We are told that again and again. And all the references go back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man returns from heaven to save his people, Israel. Jesus told the same story. Paul adds the international Church to this rescuer of God's People.

So, the 2nd Coming is for Salvation. In Jesus' day, the Romans were coming to "take some" and *leave some,* both groups being under judgment by the Romans. Those taken away were being deported into exile. Those left were left to serve as slaves for the Romans to maintain the fields and the harvests for the Romans.

But just as the Flood took away the wicked in Noah's day, and just as the Romans took away the Jewish rebels in Jesus' day, so also the Son of Man is coming on the clouds to take away the abusers of Israel and the abusers of the international Church.

The notion of Jesus returning, seizin his Church, glorifying them, and these things all taking place in a moment is true. 1st, it is encumbent upon us to become like Jesus in order to return with him. Since he was glorified after he was taken up to heaven, so also we must be glorified in heaven in order to be like him and return with him.

But it isn't so much a U Turn that we make when going to heaven and returning as an instantaneous event, describing the glorification of the Church as synchronizinh with Christ's Return. In order to return with him from heaven we must instantly be in heaven in order to return with him. We are intrinsically linked to Jesus, and so it is we must return directly with him.

The glorification event is instantaneous and originates from heaven. And so, we are instantly there so that we may return with Jesus. Calling this a "U Turn" ignores the reason for the description and focuses on externals that really have no bearing.

This is consistent with Malachi 4:3, "Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,"...and its cross references Thess 5: 1-11, 2 Peter 3: 8-15, and Zeph 1: 7-18 written in the context of the Day of the LORD.

Mal 4:2 "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings,"

 

[randyk]

The Resurrection of the Church and the Rapture are the same event but not all believers are resurrected at the same time. Believers are resurrected each according to their own order/class/set/company.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

I believe this order is 1) Christ and 2) the Church at Christ's 2nd Coming. This isn't two separate resurrections of the Church, but rather, the resurrection of Christ after his earthly ministry and the resurrection of the Church at Christ's 2nd Coming.

 

[randyk]

Just FYI - Armageddon takes place during the range/space of time of the 'event' that we call the 'Wrath of God' - which occurs after the resurrection-and-rapture has already taken place fully-to-completion.

I don't believe so. Some Christians in history were aware of Paul's statement that "we are not destined for Wrath." And so, with the description of God's Wrath at the end of the age it is thought that the Church must be raptured immediately prior to this outpouring of Wrath.

But this is not necessarily so. Christians have gone through periods of God's wrath against their nations, and they were not viewed as being "under God's wrath." In other words, what some go through as martyrs or victims of "friendly fire" others go through as those who are being judged.

 

[Mem]

2 Pet 3:12 as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

So, it's no wonder that the corruptible must put on incorruptible, in order to endure this day.