Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Men only freely choose when they have been set free.

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Then what is the PURPOSE behind God's gift of a new heart to his New Covenant people? Who needs a new/circumcised heart when the old one works fine, which is what FWT implies?
Seems like not only do you use eisegesis with scripture you do the same with people's posts.
I never stated the old one works fine.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Seems like not only do you use eisegesis with scripture you do the same with people's posts.
I never stated the old one works fine.
You have repeatedly said that man is born capable. That means his heart is fine as is, which is terribly wrong according to Scripture.

But you won't admit it. You love your free will doctrine too much. You throw Scripture out to adhere to error.

You and others like you, in love with your false doctrine of free will, confuse the natural
man with the spiritual man, repeatedly proving you have no discernment in this regard.


We know you and others have this confusion because you relentlessly ascribe to the
natural man characteristic and abilities that only the spiritual man is in possession of.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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In an earlier post you spoke of conditions a sinner must fulfill in order to access God's grace. That kind of vile heresy makes God indebted to repay the sinner for living up to his part of redemptive contract.

And what mankind MUST do and is ABLE to do are two entirely different issues. Israel was REQUIRED to keep the entire Law of Moses; but were they able?




See what happens when you ignore the NT? There's an invitation for sure in the above passage, but what does John 6 teach? Can anyone come to Christ apart from God's supernatural work of drawing them to Him?
Ignoring the nt ?

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

some here are yes lol

“For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬


i could go on repeatedly quoting it but there’s definately people ignoring the New Testament and old and explaining rhier theory while they ignore it

but that should make my point about who’s ignoring and who’s avoiding gods mercy is for those who hear and believe the gospel they’ll actually understand his mercy then and repent
 
Oct 19, 2024
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It is false to say that those of the reformed faith don't want people to be saved. I've never met one that doesn't want everyone to be saved.
Every TULIPist certainly implies apathy about divine hatred toward the non-elect,
with Rufus being the prime example on this thread.
Again, God's mercy is conditional upon non-meritorious acceptance of His grace by faith,
and He enables every sinner to have sufficient MFW to do that, no matter now natural they are.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Odd, how people sometimes don't actually want to be held accountable for believing in God like Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Daniel, and so many more did including the first Christian Martyr Stephen. Instead, they want to blame God for them being a Christian :cry:
Who has made such a claim?
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Who has made such a claim?
LOL @ blaming God. I wonder who they know? Those I know who have been saved by His mercy
and grace are grateful. Grateful to have been rescued. And that is how Scripture defines it.


It starts getting to be like, silly things kids say. Ya gotta wonder.


Colossians 1 verse 13 ~ He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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You have repeatedly said that man is born capable. That means his heart is fine as is, which is terribly wrong according to Scripture.

But you won't admit it. You love your free will doctrine too much. You throw Scripture out to adhere to error.

You and others like you, in love with your false doctrine of free will, confuse the natural
man with the spiritual man, repeatedly proving you have no discernment in this regard.


We know you and others have this confusion because you relentlessly ascribe to the
natural man characteristic and abilities that only the spiritual man is in possession of.
No, GW says sinners are capable of seeking God and finding salvation, which may be called "seeking grace",
but seeking grace is not irresistible, so instead of accepting salvation through non-meritorious MFW aka faith, souls
may reject it, thereby being self-condemned and thus reap the just punishment in hell before being destroyed.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Odd, how people sometimes don't actually want to be held accountable for believing in God like Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Daniel, and so many more did including the first Christian Martyr Stephen. Instead, they want to blame God for them being a Christian :cry:
It comes down to this

“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭NIV‬‬

If we can’t take hearing about repentance of our deeds we aren’t going to spend much time listening to Jesus . Ultimately we don’t want to change and we know he’s calling for it
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Every TULIPist certainly implies apathy about divine hatred toward the non-elect,
with Rufus being the prime example on this thread.
Again, God's mercy is conditional upon non-meritorious acceptance of His grace by faith,
and He enables every sinner to have sufficient MFW to do that, no matter now natural they are.
Your post is every bit as false as your predecessor's. Your view of God's love is so warped that it includes the casting of unbelievers into the lake of fire as an exercise of the love of God.

Every action of God is not an exercise of love.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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“In an earlier post you spoke of conditions a sinner must fulfill in order to access God's grace. “

nope my position is Gods grace was offered to all humanity based only upon what Jesus said and did on the gospel

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You might be talking about when I quoted several points when God said this about his mercy ?

“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


to be clear thisnisnt a statement I’m making but a statement God made in the ot. It was a response to Cameron pointing to a verse that seems like Gods randomly giving mercy to one without condition and. NOt an other .

the New Testament is when God declared his grace and truth not the ot

“And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My response to Cameron came fro the same place the le whoch he was talking about. For the point God doesn’t randomly give mercy to one sinner and keep it from another he gives mercy to those who love him and those who rebel against him and refuse his call to repentance that’s who ends up receiving his wrath

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9, 11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We provoke Gods wrath it’s not pre placed on us his dispostion is mercy but then this happens

“I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:2-3, 5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We provoke Gods wrath and bring it upon ourselves because we refuse him when he comes near us with his arms open wide it isn’t what he wills fornus it’s what we will against his true word of warning
What I bolded in red you take totally out of context. To whom was Deut 7 written: To the Old Covenant people of God or to the New Covenant people of God? And was the OC conditional in nature or unconditional? And what about the New: conditional or unconditional? You insist on reading the OT back into the New which is totally backwards in the scheme of progressive revelation.

And the last blue bolded portion means that since you don't care a whit about God's will for us, then your faith must be in your own will power instead of God's power of grace. You have no idea you are such a secular humanist, do you?
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Then what is the PURPOSE behind God's gift of a new heart to his New Covenant people? Who needs a new/circumcised heart when the old one works fine, which is what FWT implies?
Our willing participation in sin ruins our heart and grieves Gods heart and provokes wrath against us
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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GWH said:


Every TULIPist certainly implies apathy about divine hatred toward the non-elect,
with Rufus being the prime example on this thread.
Again, God's mercy is conditional upon non-meritorious acceptance of His grace by faith,
and He enables every sinner to have sufficient MFW to do that, no matter now natural they are.
Doublespeak much? God's mercy is conditional based on no conditions??? But God grace is conditioned on man's "freewill" choices, right? Even though God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will? You truly have a love affair with duplicity, don't you?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I have answered that question numerous times,
but I cannot remember your answer.
Do I need to share mine again?
Not at all. You might try to show from scripture, only scripture, where it states that every action of God must necessarily be an expression of love. Anything other than this would be a waste of time.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Our willing participation in sin ruins our heart and grieves Gods heart and provokes wrath against us
Well...just how badly does sin ruin our hearts? Can't be that bad in your world. After all, the circumcised, new heart heart is given by God as a reward after a sinner "freely" comes to faith, right? If the sinner didn't need that heart prior to coming to faith and repentance, why would he need the heart transplant afterwards?
 
Sep 2, 2020
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What I bolded in red you take totally out of context. To whom was Deut 7 written: To the Old Covenant people of God or to the New Covenant people of God? And was the OC conditional in nature or unconditional? And what about the New: conditional or unconditional? You insist on reading the OT back into the New which is totally backwards in the scheme of progressive revelation.

And the last blue bolded portion means that since you don't care a whit about God's will for us, then your faith must be in your own will power instead of God's power of grace. You have no idea you are such a secular humanist, do you?
“What I bolded in red you take totally out of context. “

my point is the same you guys read scripture that says things then explain yourself why it just doesn’t apply . It’s impossible to discuss the Bible when you won’t acknolwedge any of it

who was this written to ?

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬


the exact same principle as this

“Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

god doesn’t change

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

““I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:6

gods grace has appeared to everyone only those who respond to him will remain in his grace the rest will heap up to themselves wrath and anger by thoer own works
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Because God gives new hearts to only his covenant people whom he has chosen in eternity. And the new heart He gives is not "incurably wicked".
But the question you evaded answering is "why does God not give new hearts to everyone?"
At least you have been honest enough to answer that it is because He hates the non-elect,
although such borderline blasphemy makes me cringe when you express it.