Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

It was the quality of the soil, which Jesus related to the quality of the heart, that affected fruitfulness. The path would not receive the seed, but the seed was incorruptible. The stony soil and thorny soil received the seed and sprouted, so the "seed" was incorruptible, but the plant produced by the soil was corrupted. The good soil received incorruptible seed and was fruitful. The good soil had less, not more. Less hardness, fewer stones, fewer weeds. Hearts that receive the word and we purify by making them less hard, less shallow and less anxious, less greedy and less pleasure-seeking, will be more fruitful.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't so there is no loss of salvation here. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful/bears no fruit, produces nothing. (Mark 4:19). The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size and was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away afterwards.

 

[PaulThomson]

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root,

But according to Jesus, the shallow rooted plant had roots, just no depth of earth. Why are you claiming it had no roots?

You are working very hard to eisegete your opinion into the Bible by claiming the exact opposite of what the Bible plainly says. Three of the four soils produced a plant with roots.

 

[Lamar]

lol

Thats because we are saved by grace alone

but God will not force it on us,. he demands we recieve it in faith

where is your faith? In God. and his promise based on his work. or in your works?

What does your comment have to do with mailmandan's forced "harmonizing" scripture to fit his faith alone regeneration theology?

 

[mailmandan]

But according to Jesus, the shallow rooted plant had roots, just no depth of earth. Why are you claiming it had no roots?

You are working very hard to eisegete your opinion into the Bible by claiming the exact opposite of what the Bible plainly says. Three of the four soils produced a plant with roots.

Hmm.. Numerous translations say no root and ONLY the 4th soil produced a crop of various sizes. Faith without works is dead, remember?

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke 8:13

 

[mailmandan]

What does your comment have to do with mailmandan's forced "harmonizing" scripture to fit his faith alone regeneration theology?

Faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Learn the difference.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* Nothing forced about it.

 

[Lamar]

Faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Learn the difference.

No amount of faith regardless of the object, degree, sincerity or evidence is the sole agency of redemption. Hence the need for James 2:14-26 and the lack of any verses stating "faith alone" in scripture.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

Man is redeemed through the faithful obedience of the ordained commands of God. This is the flow and foam the the Bible. Obeying the commands of God are works of obedience not works of merit or the Law. Learn the difference.

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

No one is debating this point.

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* Nothing forced about it.

Any theology that insist on injecting a definitive into every verse it presents is a weak theology at best. And this is what you are most certainly doing. You are just not intellectually honest enough to admit it.

 

[mailmandan]

No amount of faith regardless of the object, degree, sincerity or evidence is the sole agency of redemption. Hence the need for James 2:14-26 and the lack of any verses stating "faith alone" in scripture.

You just admitted that you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:14-26. What did the apostle Paul teach? (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Numerous passages of scripture teach salvation through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..) hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

Man is redeemed through the faithful obedience of the ordained commands of God. This is the flow and foam the the Bible. Obeying the commands of God are works of obedience not works of merit or the Law. Learn the difference.

Obedience is works and any works that you "add" to salvation through faith, not works would become works of merit. You cant have it both ways. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

No one is debating this point.

You are debating this point but just don't seem to realize it. You "add" works to the gospel.

Any theology that insist on injecting a definitive into every verse it presents is a weak theology at best.

Any theology that injects works into salvation through faith, not works is a weak theology at best and is a false gospel.

And this is what you are most certainly doing. You are just not intellectually honest enough to admit it.

Understanding that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works is not a weak theology. It's the gospel (Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4) The truth is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to accept because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[TMS]

well, Jesus told Peter that he should be willing to forgive someone who sins and repents not 7 ( Peter went above the four times forgiveness ) times but to forgive 7 x 77 times.

so, there is a answer to what you stated.

Praise God for Forgiveness.
Can a person that was saved in the past, choose to sin? And choose to not repent and not recieve Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is conditional. We need to repent. We need to choose to repent.

 

[TMS]

Once saved doesn't mean your always saved.

Continued forgiveness is conditional for the believer. The parable is found in Matthew 18:21-35, and revolves around the forgiveness of God. A certain king responded to the pleas of his servant and forgave him a large debt. That servant went out and found a fellow servant who owed him a small amount and showed no mercy, throwing him in prison because he could not pay. When the king heard what had happened, he rescinded (revoked, canceled) his cancellation of the large debt and had his servant thrown to the tormentors till he paid in full.

No one can deny the obvious teaching of this parable. Even though God graciously forgives those who apply for it, that forgiveness is not without conditions for the future. We can lose that forgiveness by being unmerciful to others.

This is in harmony with the words of the Lord in Ezekiel 33:13,
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

The principle is repeated in verse 18,
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

So it isn't simply get on the narrow way and it is smooth sailing from there.

 

[mailmandan]

Praise God for Forgiveness.
Can a person that was saved in the past, choose to sin? And choose to not repent and not recieve Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is conditional. We need to repent. We need to choose to repent.

How do you define repent?

 

[TMS]

Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Advocates of eternal security deny it could ever happen, but read the frightening possibility for yourself in Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life."

Not blot his name out... this implies that if you do not overcome your name will be blotted out.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So our names can be removed from the book of life.. that is not once saved always saved

 

[TMS]

How do you define repent?

In my words... to be truly sorry, and to turn from your sin.

This is off Google and I agree with it...
Repentance is reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past or present wrongdoings, which is accompanied by commitment to and actual actions that show and prove a change for the better.

 

[TMS]

eternal security is conditional. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security. "If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
1 John 1:7. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
1 John 2:24. "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."
Hebrews 10:38. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch."
John 15:6. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
John 8:51. "If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Romans 11:22. "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall."
2 Peter 1:10. "For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end."
Hebrews 3:14. "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us."
2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV). "If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
Hebrews 10:26. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
1 John 2:15. "Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you."
John 15:14. "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

IF, you follow these conditions you will have eternal life.

 

[PaulThomson]

Hmm.. Numerous translations say no root and ONLY the 4th soil produced a crop of various sizes. Faith without works is dead, remember?

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke 8:13

Luke is obviously using a figure of speech here. There is no plant above ground which has literally "no root". He obviously means an under-developed root. Seeds always put down a root before breaking the surface of the soil.

 

[rogerg]

Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Advocates of eternal security deny it could ever happen, but read the frightening possibility for yourself in Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life."

Not blot his name out... this implies that if you do not overcome your name will be blotted out.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So our names can be removed from the book of life.. that is not once saved always saved

No, not for the elect. Through/by God Himself, the elect are kept. "he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God", has overcome - they are those given true faith by God through their becoming "born of God"; that is, by God, they become born again, by which, they " are kept by the power of God".

[1Jo 5:4-5 KJV]
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[1Pe 1:4,5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[PaulThomson]

eternal security is conditional. There is an eternal "if" in every consideration of eternal security. "If we walk in the light . . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
1 John 1:7. "If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
1 John 2:24. "If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."
Hebrews 10:38. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch."
John 15:6. "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."
John 8:51. "If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Romans 11:22. "If ye do these things, ye shall never fall."
2 Peter 1:10. "For we are made partakers of Christ, If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end."
Hebrews 3:14. "If we endure, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us."
2 Timothy 2:12 (RSV). "If we sin willfully . . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
Hebrews 10:26. "If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
1 John 2:15. "Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you."
John 15:14. "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." Romans 8:13.

IF, you follow these conditions you will have eternal life.

I would rephrase that to avoid confusion as, "IF, you are following these conditions you have eternal life."

And clearly the "eternal" in "eternal life", does not identify duration of life, but a quality of life.

 

[TMS]

No, not for the elect. Through/by God Himself, the elect are kept. "he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God", has overcome - they are those given true faith by God through their becoming "born of God"; that is, by God, they become born again, by which, they " are kept by the power of God".

[1Jo 5:4-5 KJV]
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[1Pe 1:4,5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I believe it is God that gives us the victory and by the power of God we are able to overcome.
But are you saying we can not choose to reject God.
Can we choose to follow the flesh rather then the Spirit.

By walking in the Spirit..... there is no condemnation.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do we have a choice?

 

[TMS]

If you see eternal life as something you can lose. You are more likely to hold firm to Jesus, and stay true to the faith that you have. Praying each day for help, asking for victory, and surrendering self to Jesus because you know the battle is still being fought.

But if you can't lose it and you believe your saved regardless, or the elect, then you can become relaxed about sin. The battle is done and you are saved so you don't need do anything.

The flesh is always fighting against the Spirit and it is a continual battle.

He that endures.... will be saved.

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery .... such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy ..... against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If we live in the Spirit....
for me it is a continual battle. It isn't automatic. It requires a choice and surrender and prayer and faith, and the Holy Spirit.

But people are saying once your born of the Spirit you can't choose to follow the flesh later in life.

 

[Magenta]

Those who do not endure to the end will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Advocates of eternal security deny it could ever happen, but read the frightening possibility for yourself in Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life."

Not blot his name out... this implies that if you do not overcome your name will be blotted out.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So our names can be removed from the book of life.. that is not once saved always saved

1 Peter 1 verse 23 plus 1 John 5 verse 4 ~ For you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

Faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Learn the difference.

Faith and unbelief are not binary concepts in the Bible: such that you either have faith or you have unbelief. The Bible describes faith and unbelief as a spectrum from a strong faith that knows what is believed, to a strong unbelief that refuses to even listen or countenance what one is being asked to believe. Our experience is one of relative certainty and uncertainty. As the man with the epileptic boy said, "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief.

A living faith is determined by its fruit. If I am doing things commensurate with a faith that Jesus is risen and Lord, and has all aithority or that X is true, then my faith is living and active, because it does not abide alone, but has commensurate works.

If I do not do things that are commensurate with a faith that Jesus is risen and Lord and has all authority, or that X is true, then my faith is dead and inactive, because it abides alone, without works.