Understanding God’s election

[lrs68]

You yourself admit that God never changes. Why would He, He is perfect! But yet, you are arguing that He loves everyone and wishes that all would repent. If that were so, there would be no need for punishment of any kind!
Go back to the OC where He proclaims “Esau I hated”. He stated this prior to his birth. Why then could the same not be true today, in the NC? He does not love everyone, He loves the people of His choosing.
Man, when he reads that story must wonder why He chose Jacob. He was a real scoundrel. He took both his brother's birthright and his blessing. Perhaps it is to teach us that all things belong to Him. Jeremiah 18:5-6

God only knows the answer to this question.

In the Old Covenant God still instructed Jews to allow outsiders to join. Look at Rahab the Harlot when the Walls of Jericho fell. She became a Jew by conversion.

Look at Ruth and Naomi. She became the grandmother of king David whose lineage Jesus chose to come from.

So nothing changed about what you are trying to say because God still aloud sinners to convert back then like He does today in the New Covenant.

 

[lrs68]

No, it has everything to do with the covenants. It is according to the respective covenant that men either live or die eternally. The covenants are the revelation of "how God is".

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

[Heb 8:9-12 KJV]
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

How God wants sinners to repent doesn't matter the covenant. God still wants them to repent.

 

[Rufus]

You yourself admit that God never changes. Why would He, He is perfect! But yet, you are arguing that He loves everyone and wishes that all would repent. If that were so, there would be no need for punishment of any kind![/B]
Go back to the OC where He proclaims “Esau I hated”. He stated this prior to his birth. Why then could the same not be true today, in the NC? He does not love everyone, He loves the people of His choosing.
Man, when he reads that story must wonder why He chose Jacob. He was a real scoundrel. He took both his brother's birthright and his blessing. Perhaps it is to teach us that all things belong to Him. Jeremiah 18:5-6

God only knows the answer to this question.

I broached this very topic not very long ago! If God's love is truly unconditional and his love for all w/o exception were true, then why would God even be concerned about sin or for that matter even righteousness? Supposedly, God loves EQUALLY sinner and saint, so it should not matter to God what category any person falls into. (Even the categories themselves are meaningless!) Besides..."love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8), so if God actually loves all w/o exception then his love already covers everyone's sins and all men are saved since all are loved equally.

 

[Rufus]

In the Old Covenant God still instructed Jews to allow outsiders to join. Look at Rahab the Harlot when the Walls of Jericho fell. She became a Jew by conversion.

Look at Ruth and Naomi. She became the grandmother of king David whose lineage Jesus chose to come from.

So nothing changed about what you are trying to say because God still aloud sinners to convert back then like He does today in the New Covenant.

But under the Old Covenant there were no promises of effectual grace, whereas under the New there are plenty of such promises since the terms of the NC, unlike the Old, are unilateral in nature.

 

[rogerg]

How God wants sinners to repent doesn't matter the covenant. God still wants them to repent.

No, He doesn't. For those sinners that He desires to have repent, repentance is given unto them as a gift. It manifests as a trust in Christ as Savior. It is God's work, not man's, as the verses I previously posted demonstrate. Everything accompanying salvation, repentance included, are the free gifts of God, given only unto those whom He had explicitly and individually chosen for it.
And that is what makes salvation by grace and not by works.

 

[lrs68]

But under the Old Covenant there were no promises of effectual grace, whereas under the New there are plenty of such promises since the terms of the NC, unlike the Old, are unilateral in nature.

But we know those under the Old Covenant were saved by Christ like we are once Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins.

 

[lrs68]

No, He doesn't. For those sinners that He desires to have repent, repentance is given unto them as a gift. It manifests as a trust in Christ as Savior. It is God's work, not man's, as the verses I previously posted demonstrate. Everything accompanying salvation, repentance included, are the free gifts of God, given only unto those whom He had explicitly and individually chosen for it.
And that is what makes salvation by grace and not by works.

Sadly, the Bible doesn't say that and when the Bible speaks about the Potter and the Clay and hardening of hearts we see God explaining Himself like He said Pharaoh first hardened his own heart and that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

So we see that God can do anything He wants but when He did things He also explained why He did those things.

So I stand by the words I am posting because God hides nothing from us and some people just want God to be like a Hitler type thing.

 

[Magenta]

You yourself admit that God never changes. Why would He, He is perfect! But yet, you are arguing that He loves everyone and wishes that all would repent. If that were so, there would be no need for punishment of any kind!
Go back to the OC where He proclaims “Esau I hated”. He stated this prior to his birth. Why then could the same not be true today, in the NC? He does not love everyone, He loves the people of His choosing.
Man, when he reads that story must wonder why He chose Jacob. He was a real scoundrel. He took both his brother's birthright and his blessing. Perhaps it is to teach us that all things belong to Him. Jeremiah 18:5-6

God only knows the answer to this question.

Romans 9 verses 11-13 ~ Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that Gsod’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[Rufus]

He is stating the facts that God wants the sinner to choose life over death. So he's addressing anyone listening.

You really don't want to get it, do you? Context means nothing to you. You think God made his redemptive covenants with each and every person in the world. Ezekiel was not sent to out in the world to issue God's prophecy to everyone. He was sent to the Jewish exiles in Babylon, and it was to them that God commanded to repent.

 

[lrs68]

You really don't want to get it, do you? Context means nothing to you. You think God made his redemptive covenants with each and every person in the world. Ezekiel was not sent to out in the world to issue God's prophecy to everyone. He was sent to the Jewish exiles in Babylon, and it was to them that God commanded to repent.

Sinners are sinners and wanting them to repent and choose life means that. Besides I know the Hebrew Tanakh and you only know the English. Big difference in meaning and translation.

 

[BillyBob]

In the Old Covenant God still instructed Jews to allow outsiders to join. Look at Rahab the Harlot when the Walls of Jericho fell. She became a Jew by conversion.

Look at Ruth and Naomi. She became the grandmother of king David whose lineage Jesus chose to come from.

So nothing changed about what you are trying to say because God still aloud sinners to convert back then like He does today in the New Covenant.

You yourself, back a few posts ago, proclaimed: "God is the same yesterday today and forever" - and I agreed! So, you are correct, he had his elect in the OC as well as the NC - that is who Ruth and Rahab were - His elect.
But even though you proclaim this truth, you cannot bring yourself to believe that He only loves some - not all. He clearly stated this in the OC, but you dispute it being true in the NC. You would have us believe that He loves everyone in the NC. You can't have it both ways.
I think you are in the midst of a square dance doing a Dosido!

 

[lrs68]

20 The nefesh that sinneth, it shall die. The ben shall not bear the avon of the av, neither shall the av bear the avon of the ben; the tzedakat hatzaddik shall be upon him, and the rishat rashah shall be upon him.

21 But if the rashah will turn from all his chattot that he hath committed, and be shomer over all My chukkot, and do that which is mishpat and tzedakah, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his peysha’im that he hath committed, they shall not be remembered against him: in his tzidkat that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all in the mot rashah? saith Adonoi Hashem. And not that he should make teshuvah from the darkhei of him, and live?

 

[lrs68]

You yourself, back a few posts ago, proclaimed: "God is the same yesterday today and forever" - and I agreed! So, you are correct, he had his elect in the OC as well as the NC - that is who Ruth and Rahab were - His elect.
But even though you proclaim this truth, you cannot bring yourself to believe that He only loves some - not all. He clearly stated this in the OC, but you dispute it being true in the NC. You would have us believe that He loves everyone in the NC. You can't have it both ways.
I think you are in the midst of a square dance doing a Dosido!

I believe that God makes comments based upon His foreknowledge knowing like Pharaoh on his own choosing hardened his heart or that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

I don't believe God hates these people to just hate them.

I believe God hates them because He knew what they would do that is basically choosing to be against God.

God loves me because He knew I would love Him. But if I was going to be against God and end up in Hell then He would have hated me.

 

[Rufus]

Sadly, the Bible doesn't say that and when the Bible speaks about the Potter and the Clay and hardening of hearts we see God explaining Himself like He said Pharaoh first hardened his own heart and that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

So we see that God can do anything He wants but when He did things He also explained why He did those things.

So I stand by the words I am posting because God hides nothing from us and some people just want God to be like a Hitler type thing.

You are ignorant of the scriptures. God has many secrets that he hides from the human race!

Deut 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV

You also have poor reading schools. God predestined Jacob and Esau eternal destinies in eternity BEFORE either of the twins did anything good or bad. Read Romans 9 some day but flush your carnal presuppositions down the toilet first!

Re Pharaoh: More wishful thinking on your part. Read the Exodus account some day and pay attention the chronology of events.

Ex 4:21-22
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

Besides, don't you know that man's ways are NOT in himself!? So neither was Pharaoh's!

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.
NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV

 

[Magenta]

You are ignorant of the scriptures. God has many secrets that he hides from the human race!

Deut 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV

You also have poor reading schools. God predestined Jacob and Esau eternal destinies in eternity BEFORE either of the twins did anything good or bad. Read Romans 9 some day but flush your carnal presuppositions down the toilet first!

Re Pharaoh: More wishful thinking on your part. Read the Exodus account some day and pay attention the chronology of events.

Ex 4:21-22
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

Besides, don't you know that man's ways are NOT in himself!? So neither was Pharaoh's!

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.
NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV

Proverbs 19 verse 21 Jeremiah 10 verse 23b ~ Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. No one who walks directs his own steps.

 

[lrs68]

You are ignorant of the scriptures. God has many secrets that he hides from the human race!

Deut 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV

You also have poor reading schools. God predestined Jacob and Esau eternal destinies in eternity BEFORE either of the twins did anything good or bad. Read Romans 9 some day but flush your carnal presuppositions down the toilet first!

Re Pharaoh: More wishful thinking on your part. Read the Exodus account some day and pay attention the chronology of events.

Ex 4:21-22
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

Besides, don't you know that man's ways are NOT in himself!? So neither was Pharaoh's!

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.
NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV

Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV

Those verses merely say we need God. It doesn't mean God forces people to live a certain way. And you sure don't understand the Hebrew Language.

 

[BillyBob]

20 The nefesh that sinneth, it shall die. The ben shall not bear the avon of the av, neither shall the av bear the avon of the ben; the tzedakat hatzaddik shall be upon him, and the rishat rashah shall be upon him.

21 But if the rashah will turn from all his chattot that he hath committed, and be shomer over all My chukkot, and do that which is mishpat and tzedakah, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his peysha’im that he hath committed, they shall not be remembered against him: in his tzidkat that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all in the mot rashah? saith Adonoi Hashem. And not that he should make teshuvah from the darkhei of him, and live?

This is definitely the smartest thing that you have said today..

 

[Rufus]

I believe that God makes comments based upon His foreknowledge knowing like Pharaoh on his own choosing hardened his heart or that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

I don't believe God hates these people to just hate them.

I believe God hates them because He knew what they would do that is basically choosing to be against God.

God loves me because He knew I would love Him. But if I was going to be against God and end up in Hell then He would have hated me.

God's will is not contingent upon man's. God work all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).

God hates sinners because they're evil. God cannot love what is evil. And I, for one, take much comfort in this fact and praise God for his goodness, righteousness and holiness that prohibits him from loving anything or anyone who is evil.

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God is crystal ball gazer who makes decisions on the basis of man's actions. Besides...if God did that, then He could not possibly be omniscient since all knowledge would not reside in him from all eternity since God would have to LEARN from man in space and time. But a truly omniscient being has all knowledge innately and eternally residing in him spontaneously, instantaneously and simultaneously at all times.

Moreover, you will not be able to prove from the scriptures that God's foreknowledge has anything to do with human events or actions or activities. Rom 8:29, for example, does not teach what you think it does. Depending on your translation, the "those" or "whom" in the verse are personal pronouns, not impersonal.

 

[lrs68]

God's will is not contingent upon man's. God work all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).

God hates sinners because they're evil. God cannot love what is evil. And I, for one, take much comfort in this fact and praise God for his goodness, righteousness and holiness that prohibits him from loving anything or anyone who is evil.

And there's no passage in scripture that teaches that God is crystal ball gazer who makes decisions on the basis of man's actions. Besides...if God did that, then He could not possibly be omniscient since all knowledge would not reside in him from all eternity since God would have to LEARN from man in space and time. But a truly omniscient being has all knowledge innately and eternally residing in him spontaneously, instantaneously and simultaneously at all times.

Moreover, you will not be able to prove from the scriptures that God's foreknowledge has anything to do with human events or actions or activities. Rom 8:29, for example, does not teach what you think it does. Depending on your translation, the "those" or "whom" in the verse are personal pronouns, not impersonal.

God's Will doesn't have to be contingent because man is capable of messing his own life up.

 

[Rufus]

Those verses merely say we need God. It doesn't mean God forces people to live a certain way. And you sure don't understand the Hebrew Language.

No, those verses say what they say. GOD DIRECTS man's ways! But they don't teach that God "forces" anyone. That is your own carnal conclusion and, therefore, a problem of your own making.

Dan 5:23d
But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV