Does Jesus' Second Coming begin in Revelation Chapter 18?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,320
183
63
#21
Revelation Chapter 18 seems to match the description of Jesus' second coming in Matthew 24:27-31 and the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. What do you think?

View attachment 275990
Revelation runs in THIS ORDER.....

Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in his Eternal Glory by John

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age....Rev. 4:1 specifically bridges the two ages, it symbolizes the Pre Tribulation or Pre 70th Week Rapture as I like to call it............then comes the 70th week Events as seen below:

Rev. 4 & 5 is the Church seen in Heaven with her White Robes on, meaning Rev. 19:8 has already happened by that time. Rev. 4:4 proves 100% this is the Raptured Church, the 24 Elders sits at God's "THRONE", with "White Raiment" on and they have on CROWNS of Gold. Well, looking back in Rev. 2 & 3 we see in Rev. 2:10 that the Church who OVERCOMES will have Crowns on their heads, then in Rev. 3:5 we see those who overcome will have on White Raiment (Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 we see those who overcome via death will sit at God's THRONE. The 24 Elders are akin to 1 Chronicles 24 where we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, and in Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 we are called by God Kings and Priests, in those same two verses in Rev. 5 those mentioned are said to be the Redeemed of God, angels do not need Redeeming !! So, the Church can be seen in Heaven before the Seals are ever broken.

Rev. 6 is the Seals being broken, but they ARE NOT JUDGEMENTS, they are 7 Seals (meaning they are Divinely Sealed by God) which Seal up God's Wrath until the 7th Seal is taken off. Jesus whilst taking off each Seal is FORETELLING the Church in heaven what is soon to befall those back on earth, all this is still the first half of the 70th week, the Wrath falls in the middle of the 70th week. In Seals 1-5 Jesus foretells about the Anti-Christs soon to come actions, which starts at the 1260. 1.) He Conquers for 42 months 2.) He brings war for 42 months 3.) His wars brings Famine fir 42 months 4.) His rule will bring Sickness, Death and the Grave for 42 months, each is designated by a colored horse taken from Zechariah. The 5th Seal is the Anti-Christ/Beast killing the Gentiles who turn to Christ and the 2/3 Jews who did not repent and refused to flee Judea.

The 6th Seal is Jesus foretelling them about God's soon to come Wrath. It will turn the sun and moon dark and many people will die, well that only happens in Rev. 8 when an Asteroid hits the earth, Trumps 1-4 are all about this asteroid, but first Israel must Flee to Safety as seen in Rev. 7. The 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 because that is when God's Wrath is LOOSED !! After the 1/3 (5 million Jews) have repented and fled Judea into the Mountains of Jordan (Petra/Bozrah).

Rev. 7 comes next, just before God's Wrath falls God has to get the 1/3 to repent, they do, then God says HOLD UP the Four Winds (Judgments) until the 144,000 (a CODE for All Israel who repents ASK for the mathematical code) are Sealed with the Holy Spirit like we are be being saved via Jesus blood) and PROTECTED [in the Petra area] Also NOOTICE, God tells the Angels to HURT NOT the Earth, Trees nor Seas until the 144,000 (5 Million Jews who repent) are Protected. Guess what Rev. 8 HURTS? You got it, the Earth, Trees and the Sea !! So, God' Wrath will not fall until Israel repents and are Protected in the Bozrah Area. To BACK THIS UP..................read Zech. 13:8-9 the 1/3 repent and then in the very next verse in Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives and Jerusalem is sacked !! Also, Malachi 4:5-6 says God will send Elijah back BEFORE the DOTL arrives, so Israel indeed repents JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8. The flash up to the Multitude in Heaven in verses 9-16 are the Pre 70th week Raptured Church.

Now we come to God's Wrath Chapters 2-7 are all in Chronological Order.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (really 15 & 16 are one chapter) are God's Wrath. In rev. 8 the Wrath comes by way of the 7th Seal being opened up. This Asteroid starts fires by coming apart in the air and burns 1/3 of the Trees (Trump #1) Then we see THE IMPACT in Trump #2, followed by the FALLOUT or fresh waters being poisoned in Trump #3 and finally in Trump #4 we see the Sun & Moon go dark via all the smoke of course. So, Rev. 8 is simply one asteroid impact as told about in four phases.

Rev. 9 continues the Trumpet Judgments, but as Rev. 8:13 says the final three Trumps are the coming Three Woes. We see Woe #1 (Trump #5) where Demons are freed from the Bottomless Pit. Then via Trump #6 or the 2nd Woe, we see 200 Million Angelic Army wiping out 1/3 of those who took the Mark of the Beast.

Rev. 16 continues the Chronological order of the Book of Revelation. Now we skip to the 3rd Woe or 7th Trump in Rev. 16, the 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials Combined. They emit from the 7th Trump of course. In Revelation 15 the Angels ready the Vials to be poured out, just like they readied the 7 Trumps to be sounded in Rev. 8, except that was ONE CHAPTER, likewise I think Rev. 15 & is ONE CHAPTER.

All of the other chapters are Parenthetical Citation Chapters I can explain later. They all cover 42 months except Rev. 14 which covers 1335 days, an d Rev. 14 and 19 which each cover 7 years, Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter and we get a flashback to the Pre Trib. Rapture in Rev. 14:14, in Rev. 19 we see the Bride BEFORE she gets her White Robes so that chapter covers 7 full years.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
984
268
63
#22
Revelation Chapter 18 seems to match the description of Jesus' second coming in Matthew 24:27-31 and the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. What do you think?

View attachment 275990
The interesting part is that Chapters 18-20 and 19 you see the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then few verses later going to war at Armageddon.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,452
6,274
113
#23
I agree that there are several visions woven together. I don't that prevents us from establishing a timeline. e.g. the fifth trumpet precedes the sixth trumpet.
Right . Im
I my saying it’s not a continuos single
Vision that holds to the same timeline the truMpets order are all within the vision of the angels and trumpets for instance. I’m not meaning to say there isnt proper order within each seperate vision just that the second seal for instance isnt before the first trumpet in time necessarily because they are two seperate visions. Even though it’s written before it in the book
 
Mar 10, 2025
235
152
43
Pprecatechumenate
#24
Revelation Chapter Eighteen does have Jesus' Return, even calls Him The Word of God like in John Chapter One. A good cross reference is Zachariah Chapter Fourteen, which also is Jesus' Return. The two compliment each other.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#25
Precious friend, no problem at all - I believe the New Heavenly Jerusalem
will come down to the New earth:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of​
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2 AV)​
Have often wondered about why it is a 12,000-furlong [ 1500-miles ] cube, as I have
studied Israel's "hope for the earth" [ 1 or 2 miles high? ] and The Body Of Christ's "hope
of heaven" which could be in the Upper Remainder miles, eh?

Concerning "the Lamb's wife" please review/enjoy:
Is The Body The Bride Of Christ?

Concerning the "timing" of the rapture, please prayerfully and carefully
review (Newly 'revised'):
God's Pre - TOJT Great Grace Departure & The Second Coming?

Stay encouraged and edified and please keep the great learning questions coming...
Thanks for your answer. That's interesting, that you think that a large part of the New Jerusalem is way up in space.

I actually have an alternate explanation. I think the 12,000 furlongs is the perimeter of the 4 sides i.e. 3000 furlongs on each side, such as in Ezekiel 48:35, which describes the measurements of a similar city as 18000 cubits all the way around. So 1500 miles down to 375 miles. As for the height, I suggest that it is actually the depth of the city. The city walls have prominent foundation stones. Imagine if they were 375 miles deep! That's what I call a city with foundations that Abraham would have looked forward to (Hebrews 11:10). Such deep foundations would also make it a city that is unshakeable by earthquakes (Hebrews 12:28).

You mentioned that the body of Christ (the church) is not the bride of Christ. Your main reasoning is that the bride is Israel. You will find in the Bible that the wife of God is Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and the Church, because Church and the remnant of Israel will live together in the New Jerusalem.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#26
Revelation Chapter Eighteen does have Jesus' Return, even calls Him The Word of God like in John Chapter One. A good cross reference is Zachariah Chapter Fourteen, which also is Jesus' Return. The two compliment each other.
I think you mean Revelation 19:13, which calls Jesus the Word of God. I agree with you.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#27
Revelation runs in THIS ORDER.....

Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in his Eternal Glory by John

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age....Rev. 4:1 specifically bridges the two ages, it symbolizes the Pre Tribulation or Pre 70th Week Rapture as I like to call it............then comes the 70th week Events as seen below:

Rev. 4 & 5 is the Church seen in Heaven with her White Robes on, meaning Rev. 19:8 has already happened by that time. Rev. 4:4 proves 100% this is the Raptured Church, the 24 Elders sits at God's "THRONE", with "White Raiment" on and they have on CROWNS of Gold. Well, looking back in Rev. 2 & 3 we see in Rev. 2:10 that the Church who OVERCOMES will have Crowns on their heads, then in Rev. 3:5 we see those who overcome will have on White Raiment (Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 we see those who overcome via death will sit at God's THRONE. The 24 Elders are akin to 1 Chronicles 24 where we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, and in Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 we are called by God Kings and Priests, in those same two verses in Rev. 5 those mentioned are said to be the Redeemed of God, angels do not need Redeeming !! So, the Church can be seen in Heaven before the Seals are ever broken.

Rev. 6 is the Seals being broken, but they ARE NOT JUDGEMENTS, they are 7 Seals (meaning they are Divinely Sealed by God) which Seal up God's Wrath until the 7th Seal is taken off. Jesus whilst taking off each Seal is FORETELLING the Church in heaven what is soon to befall those back on earth, all this is still the first half of the 70th week, the Wrath falls in the middle of the 70th week. In Seals 1-5 Jesus foretells about the Anti-Christs soon to come actions, which starts at the 1260. 1.) He Conquers for 42 months 2.) He brings war for 42 months 3.) His wars brings Famine fir 42 months 4.) His rule will bring Sickness, Death and the Grave for 42 months, each is designated by a colored horse taken from Zechariah. The 5th Seal is the Anti-Christ/Beast killing the Gentiles who turn to Christ and the 2/3 Jews who did not repent and refused to flee Judea.

The 6th Seal is Jesus foretelling them about God's soon to come Wrath. It will turn the sun and moon dark and many people will die, well that only happens in Rev. 8 when an Asteroid hits the earth, Trumps 1-4 are all about this asteroid, but first Israel must Flee to Safety as seen in Rev. 7. The 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 because that is when God's Wrath is LOOSED !! After the 1/3 (5 million Jews) have repented and fled Judea into the Mountains of Jordan (Petra/Bozrah).

Rev. 7 comes next, just before God's Wrath falls God has to get the 1/3 to repent, they do, then God says HOLD UP the Four Winds (Judgments) until the 144,000 (a CODE for All Israel who repents ASK for the mathematical code) are Sealed with the Holy Spirit like we are be being saved via Jesus blood) and PROTECTED [in the Petra area] Also NOOTICE, God tells the Angels to HURT NOT the Earth, Trees nor Seas until the 144,000 (5 Million Jews who repent) are Protected. Guess what Rev. 8 HURTS? You got it, the Earth, Trees and the Sea !! So, God' Wrath will not fall until Israel repents and are Protected in the Bozrah Area. To BACK THIS UP..................read Zech. 13:8-9 the 1/3 repent and then in the very next verse in Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives and Jerusalem is sacked !! Also, Malachi 4:5-6 says God will send Elijah back BEFORE the DOTL arrives, so Israel indeed repents JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8. The flash up to the Multitude in Heaven in verses 9-16 are the Pre 70th week Raptured Church.

Now we come to God's Wrath Chapters 2-7 are all in Chronological Order.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (really 15 & 16 are one chapter) are God's Wrath. In rev. 8 the Wrath comes by way of the 7th Seal being opened up. This Asteroid starts fires by coming apart in the air and burns 1/3 of the Trees (Trump #1) Then we see THE IMPACT in Trump #2, followed by the FALLOUT or fresh waters being poisoned in Trump #3 and finally in Trump #4 we see the Sun & Moon go dark via all the smoke of course. So, Rev. 8 is simply one asteroid impact as told about in four phases.

Rev. 9 continues the Trumpet Judgments, but as Rev. 8:13 says the final three Trumps are the coming Three Woes. We see Woe #1 (Trump #5) where Demons are freed from the Bottomless Pit. Then via Trump #6 or the 2nd Woe, we see 200 Million Angelic Army wiping out 1/3 of those who took the Mark of the Beast.

Rev. 16 continues the Chronological order of the Book of Revelation. Now we skip to the 3rd Woe or 7th Trump in Rev. 16, the 3rd Woe is ALL 7 Vials Combined. They emit from the 7th Trump of course. In Revelation 15 the Angels ready the Vials to be poured out, just like they readied the 7 Trumps to be sounded in Rev. 8, except that was ONE CHAPTER, likewise I think Rev. 15 & is ONE CHAPTER.

All of the other chapters are Parenthetical Citation Chapters I can explain later. They all cover 42 months except Rev. 14 which covers 1335 days, an d Rev. 14 and 19 which each cover 7 years, Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter and we get a flashback to the Pre Trib. Rapture in Rev. 14:14, in Rev. 19 we see the Bride BEFORE she gets her White Robes so that chapter covers 7 full years.
I mostly agree with your order of events: seals --> trumpets --> bowls. While I agree that Revelation 4:1 is a turning point, it does not seem like the Rapture to me. While the elders in Revelation 14:4 are 24 overcomers who are dressed in white robes, that does not mean that they are the entire church. I think they are the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Israel, though it doesn't say explicitly.

I agree that the 6th seal is Jesus foretelling them about God's soon to come Wrath but it doesn't happen right at that time. But I also think the great multitude in Chapter 7 is also foretelling about God's salvation to come in Chapter 19.

I disagree that Chapter 19 covers 7 full years. At the beginning of the chapter, they are already celebrating the judgment of the great harlot (Rev. 19:2), which takes place after the seventh vial (Rev. 16:19). Similarly, I disagree with your claim that Rev. 14:14 flashes back to a rapture at Revelation 4:1.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#28
The interesting part is that Chapters 18-20 and 19 you see the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then few verses later going to war at Armageddon.
The marriage supper is announced but has not happened yet in Rev. 19:9. Where is the venue for the supper? I think it is in the New Jerusalem after it comes down to the earth.

Isaiah 25:6 (NIV): "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines."

Matthew 8:11 (NIV): "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
984
268
63
#29
The marriage supper is announced but has not happened yet in Rev. 19:9. Where is the venue for the supper? I think it is in the New Jerusalem after it comes down to the earth.

Isaiah 25:6 (NIV): "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines."

Matthew 8:11 (NIV): "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
You could be correct.
One thing is for certain is that everyone part of the Marriage Supper is gathered in Chapter 19 and will be witnesses to the Victory at Armageddon. Whether or not being gathered in Chapter 19 is saying the Marriage Supper is taking place and soon after Armageddon time will tell and then we all shall know.
 
May 13, 2016
1,320
183
63
#31
I mostly agree with your order of events: seals --> trumpets --> bowls. While I agree that Revelation 4:1 is a turning point, it does not seem like the Rapture to me. While the elders in Revelation 14:4 are 24 overcomers who are dressed in white robes, that does not mean that they are the entire church. I think they are the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Israel, though it doesn't say explicitly.
I think what you are really saying is you do not believe in the Pre Trib. (Pre 70th week) Rapture and this my logic can't be correct, even though it really is. We will let that pass.....

Jesus calls John to come up here, of course its God showing John the future Rapture after the (7) Seven Churches (Divine Completion = 7) and then we get the 24 Elders, its all symbology, codes and metaphors using Old Testament Lingo (OT). Out of 404 verses in Revelation 289 are referencing the O.T. Like the four horses of Rev. 6, or Babylon in Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 18 (Whole World) or the Women in Rev. 12 meaning Israel et al. Rev. 17 is Daniel 5 rewritten by Good to gives us clues about who the Harlot is, go look at Dan. 5, it becomes clear the Harlot = All False Religion of all time.

Remember, I said God, who wrote Revelation and gave it to Jesus, calls us Kings and Priests in Rev. 1:6 and in Rev. 5:9-10. Thus the 24 Elders now make sense, 1 Chronicles 24 is about the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, God the knower of all things GOES DEEP, we have to dig out His clues. He is using the Old Testament Lingo like a Conductor of Music to string along the deeper truths unto us in a CODED, METAPHORIC FASHION, so the world will not understand what we do.

The fact that no one goes to Heaven before the Rapture should clue you in that those seen in Heaven had to have been Raptured Pre Trib. (70th week). 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 tells us the Dead in Christ are only raised at the Rapture, so if we see ANYONE in Heaven it has to be a Pre Trib. Rapture. I can prove 100% from scripture that the Dead in Christ and the living in Christ go to be with the Lord at the exact same time, so who are those in Heaven in Rev. 4 & 5? The Pre Trib. Raptured Church.

The Jews are raised on the last day, see Dan. 12:1-2, they are already Married unto God, so why would they need to attend the Wedding unto the Lamb? Sure, all Jews who came to Christ after his birth and before the Pre TRib. Rapture are a part of the Church, but all other Jews have the Fathers name written on their foreheads, see the 144,000 another CODE, just like the 10 Virgin Brides = ALL Christendom, the 144,000 is a CODE also, 12 = Fulness right? And 10 = Completeness...SEE IT NOW? 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is God SHOUTING the 144,000 = ALL Israel who repents. God was never giving Satan a heads up on the real number ahead of time, heck in Zech. 13:8-9 He uses 1/3 a Ratio. So, we know it has to be at the very least 5 million Jews whom repent, not 144,000 just like there are not 10 Female only Christians in the world. The 144,000 are designated as men because they were called FIRST, the Church is designated as Female because we were called later. Its symbology.

I agree that the 6th seal is Jesus foretelling them about God's soon to come Wrath but it doesn't happen right at that time. But I also think the great multitude in Chapter 7 is also foretelling about God's salvation to come in Chapter 19.
Chapter 7 is not a SEAL, so the FORETELLING would not fit, besides we already see the Bride in Heaven before Jesus opens the Seals in Rev. 4 & 5. When you have to adjust EVERYTHING to fit a pre determined narrative brother, Occam's Razor would tell us to change that ideology to the simpler understandings.

I disagree that Chapter 19 covers 7 full years. At the beginning of the chapter, they are already celebrating the judgment of the great harlot (Rev. 19:2), which takes place after the seventh vial (Rev. 16:19). Similarly, I disagree with your claim that Rev. 14:14 flashes back to a rapture at Revelation 4:1.
Rev. 19:1-3 is an overview of the whole chapter, then we get to the details. Armageddon Judges Satan and his followers, the AC and 10 Kings judged the Harlot (All False Religion). God is not subject to time, His writing and prose therefore are not all about time frames per se.

I will explain the Parenthetical Citation chapters later on and show how they fit and why.

Good back and forth, I can handle mutual respect, some people are so entrenched in bad eschatology they can't even discuss it in a reasonable manner, sadly.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#32
The fact that no one goes to Heaven before the Rapture should clue you in that those seen in Heaven had to have been Raptured Pre Trib. (70th week). 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 tells us the Dead in Christ are only raised at the Rapture, so if we see ANYONE in Heaven it has to be a Pre Trib. Rapture. I can prove 100% from scripture that the Dead in Christ and the living in Christ go to be with the Lord at the exact same time, so who are those in Heaven in Rev. 4 & 5? The Pre Trib. Raptured Church..
We know that Elijah went to heaven before the Rapture (2 Kings 2:11), but you could argue that he didn't need to be resurrected. Jesus also said to the dying thief that: "today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43), which I think is heaven. Paul wanted to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23), which I think means to be in heaven with Christ. Paul wouldn't want to depart and be with Christ if he still had to wait for the Rapture. Also, I don't think the souls that were slain in the fifth seal were resurrected, yet I think they were in heaven (Rev. 6:9). Hebrews 12:22-23 talks about the spirits of just men made perfect, which I think refers to the spirits of the saints in Hebrews 11 who are in the heavenly Jerusalem today. So based on that, I think the 24 elders are in heaven but they are not necessarily in their resurrection bodies.
 
May 13, 2016
1,320
183
63
#33
We know that Elijah went to heaven before the Rapture (2 Kings 2:11), but you could argue that he didn't need to be resurrected. Jesus also said to the dying thief that: "today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43), which I think is heaven
Paradise was not heaven, it was a holding place in the earth for souls (Abraham's Bosom). Why would Jesus saying you will be with me "THIS DAY" not clue us in? Jesus stayed in the earth three days, so that means he could not have been speaking about heaven, but instead about a holding place for righteous souls.
 
May 13, 2016
1,320
183
63
#34
Paul wanted to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23), which I think means to be in heaven with Christ. Paul wouldn't want to depart and be with Christ if he still had to wait for the Rapture. Also, I don't think the souls that were slain in the fifth seal were resurrected, yet I think they were in heaven (Rev. 6:9). Hebrews 12:22-23 talks about the spirits of just men made perfect, which I think refers to the spirits of the saints in Hebrews 11 who are in the heavenly Jerusalem today. So based on that, I think the 24 elders are in heaven but they are not necessarily in their resurrection bodies.
Yes, we will be with Christ only if we die, depart, but they in their preaching of the Gospel are telling people what will come, after the sleep or rest period, in the grave or hades, the ground. All you have to do is read 1 Cor. 15:50-52 and in Dan. 12:1-2, we can see the Dead in Christ arise AND the living in Christ are CHANGED, meaning we change from a human in a body to a spirit man like the dead are raised as Spirit Men, no flesh can enter heaven. So, why would the be RAISED if they were already in heaven?
 
May 31, 2013
11,394
193
63
#35
Revelation Chapter 18 seems to match the description of Jesus' second coming in Matthew 24:27-31 and the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. What do you think?

View attachment 275990
The coming of Christ occurs at the seventh trumpet...

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

There are seven trumpets, so the seventh one is the last one.

There is no rapture. The Church is protected in the Place of Safety during the tribulation...

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

There is no way Heaven could be a wilderness. The greek here for wilderness is...

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Heaven is not a waste, a desert and certainly not desolate.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Christ is coming back to the Earth, we don't go to Heaven.

Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Where will we be?

ev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#36
Paradise was not heaven, it was a holding place in the earth for souls (Abraham's Bosom). Why would Jesus saying you will be with me "THIS DAY" not clue us in? Jesus stayed in the earth three days, so that means he could not have been speaking about heaven, but instead about a holding place for righteous souls.
Jesus' body was in the tomb during those three days in the earth. I don't think Jesus was saying that the tomb was paradise. James 2:26 says the body without the spirit is dead. In other words, Jesus' spirit was probably not in the tomb with His body. Jesus' spirit was somewhere else in Paradise. I think the Paradise is in heaven, where Paul visited (2 Corinthians 12:2, 4). Similarly, I think Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22) is in heaven.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#37
Yes, we will be with Christ only if we die, depart, but they in their preaching of the Gospel are telling people what will come, after the sleep or rest period, in the grave or hades, the ground. All you have to do is read 1 Cor. 15:50-52 and in Dan. 12:1-2, we can see the Dead in Christ arise AND the living in Christ are CHANGED, meaning we change from a human in a body to a spirit man like the dead are raised as Spirit Men, no flesh can enter heaven. So, why would the be RAISED if they were already in heaven?
Flesh and blood cannot "inherit" the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), because the flesh and blood will not last as long as the eternal kingdom without being changed. But John, the writer of Revelation, surely entered heaven while still alive in the flesh, not yet changed or resurrected. Probably just John's spirit went to heaven, but that just means the other men's spirits can also enter heaven without being raptured or resurrected.
 
Jan 15, 2025
127
41
28
#38
The coming of Christ occurs at the seventh trumpet...

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

There are seven trumpets, so the seventh one is the last one.
Yes. The "days" of the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 10:7) is when Christ comes, but these multiple days includes the 7 bowls and Chapter 18-19, in my opinion.

There is no rapture. The Church is protected in the Place of Safety during the tribulation...

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

There is no way Heaven could be a wilderness. The greek here for wilderness is...

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

Heaven is not a waste, a desert and certainly not desolate.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
I think there is a rapture, as that is the word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and translated "caught". I agree that there is no pre-trib rapture. The woman is Israel, not the church. The church are "the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17).

Christ is coming back to the Earth, we don't go to Heaven.

Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Where will we be?

ev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Partially true. Christ comes to the clouds. We will go to the clouds, which can be called "heaven", and then we will return to the earth.

But I think souls of believers who die today will be in heaven, such as the martyrs in the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9-11). Paul also expected that to die meant to be with Christ (Philippians 1:23) who is in heaven (Colossians 3:1).