Understanding God’s election

[studier]

And, of course, "I tipped the scales towards hatred" because all you FWers tipped to the other extreme -- love, love, love, love.

I do believe man's will is involved, so I know it makes sense to you to consider and label me a "FWer" but I don't think I tip the scale toward love as you say. I simply point out that God is love, which again seems very foundational, vs. other verses that say He hates something.

Also, FWIW, here's a little very simple detail from the Text - just from a search in English using the NKJ:

• Hatred is mentioned 16 times - none speak of God's hatred
• Hate* is mentioned 181 times - 16 non-repeating speak of God hating - 4 of which speak of God's hating people for something and all 16 have to do with some concept of sin.
• Love* is mentioned 573 times

So, again, FWIW, your focus on God hating people is very imbalanced.

So, if we are watching the Textual scale, God hating someone for something is certainly not the focus of our Text. Sure, it's a legitimate discussion, but seemingly not a very profound one.

Is God's love holy? Is God's character holy? Is God's nature holy? Is God in his essence holy? Then how could his hatred be anything but holy, since God HATES sin and the sinner!? Why don't you address Prov 11:1, 20 and explain to us how God hatred for the perverse in heart in v. 20 differs so radically from his hatred of dishonesty in v.1 -- keeping in mind that the same Hebrew word is used for hates/abhors/detests in both verses?

Doing some of the above type work it's easy to see how you need to branch out looking at words to build your thin case for God hating people for something. So, you're looking at another word in Prov11:1, 20 typically translated as "abomination" and trending into abhor or detest and from there potentially picking up hate via English. So, a few more details:

• The Hebrew looks to be used 117 times - 5 speak of God seeing someone as an abomination for some reason associated with sin.

Once again, you're seemingly working quite hard to build a case for God hating people for some cause. And, again, a legitimate discussion, but not very profound.

And, yes, all God's love toward his elect is covenantal in nature! To deny this is to deny that God's saints are in a covenant relationship with him. And this is the only kind of love that counts in terms of salvation. God is not in a covenant relationship with each and every person in the world, which is precisely why Jesus didn't pray for the "world" in John 17. And it also accounts for Jesus' condemning words to the lost in Mat 7:23! How could Jesus ever love anyone, in a filial sense, whom He has never known!?

Please, God is love, and His love is not all covenantal. Love is His person. Love is His nature, His character. When we're done with this silly mess of existence, we won't need to know Love vs. hate. Guess which one will never fall - never fail. Guess which one is so vast that an Apostle prayed for us to grasp and comprehend it.

 

[Kroogz]

So, you have no explanation for Prov 11:1, 20 or 2Pe 3:9.? Typical of you FWers! The lot of you are a bunch of empty suits, pretending you know scripture when in fact all of you are woefully ignorant of God's Holy Word.

Yeah, it's pretty simple.

Calvies scale is tipped way into His sovereignty.

Armies scale is tipped way into His Love.

The pivot is INTEGRITY. And Both the calvies and the armies distort the pivot.

 

[studier]

those who think salvation is not secure ultimately are arguing a person is saving themselves
.... and the work of Christ is insufficient to save.

Poor reasoning.

 

[studier]

The pivot is INTEGRITY. And Both the calvies and the armies distort the pivot.

Please elaborate.

 

[HeIsHere]

Poor reasoning.

If there is something to add to "Justified" then work of Christ Jesus is insufficient.
You as well have not really dealt with the status of "justified" as complete.

Where is your reasoning on how a person re-assumes a debt they have received as paid in full

 

[Kroogz]

Please elaborate.

All of God attributes work within and of themselves. One attribute cannot impugn another.

In Gods Sovereignty, through His Love He sent His Son to mankind. And through His perfect righteousness/Justice he offers salvation to mankind through His Son.

He cannot save us through His Sovereignty, it would impugn His Justice.

He cannot save us through His Love, it would impugn His Justice.

So through integrity(All of His attributes working in unison) He offers ALL of mankind salvation through His son....Perfect Justice.

True, undefiled Justice is INTEGRITY.

Equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL......So no loss of salvation. It's EQUAL. INTEGRITY.

 

[Rufus]

You clearly chose not to read my post about

That was a non-answer! AGAIN, the passage itself has NOTHING to do about people choosing Christ, but God choosing people! Moreover, you originally stated that God foreknew and predestined his Son! And God predestined his Son to be conformed to image of his Son -- which is a totally ABSURD notion!

 

[lrs68]

That was a non-answer! AGAIN, the passage itself has NOTHING to do about people choosing Christ, but God choosing people! Moreover, you originally stated that God foreknew and predestined his Son! And God predestined his Son to be conformed to image of his Son -- which is a totally ABSURD notion!

I never argued that position but everyone born is foreordained but not everyone accepts the Gift of Salvation.

 

[studier]

So through integrity(All of His attributes working in unison)

The heart of the matter that most don't seem to understand. We get most of our input from inside ourselves - how we may think or feel about something - or from outside of us but inside this fallen world and its inhabitants, both seen and unseen. We're imperfect casts of Him existing in bodies of death surrounded by the same and attempting to comprehend how perfect character of perfect essence works in perfect harmony in all of its attributes - which you're identifying as INTEGRITY.

Then we pretend we fully understand and comprehend how perfect integrity of essence functions in omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence in union with the functional will of His creatures as we charge one another with ignorance.

It's astounding really.

 

[BillyBob]

I never argued that position but everyone born is foreordained but not everyone accepts the Gift of Salvation.

Foreordained, generally refers to God's pre-determining or appointing certain individuals or events to a specific purpose or destiny. So, are you saying that some are foreordained to be saved and others are not? I'm just asking your opinion...

 

[lrs68]

Foreordained, generally refers to God's pre-determining or appointing certain individuals or events to a specific purpose or destiny. So, are you saying that some are foreordained to be saved and others are not? I'm just asking your opinion...

That is not actually established in the Bible and why it's possible to mean all humans were foreordained. Being foreordained in all Biblical examples doesn't prove anyone will be saved but proves they were given a chance to be.

 

[BillyBob]

That is not actually established in the Bible and why it's possible to mean all humans were foreordained. Being foreordained in all Biblical examples doesn't prove anyone will be saved but proves they were given a chance to be.

Then, I am still having trouble understanding what you mean when you say "but everyone born is foreordained".

 

[studier]

If there is something to add to "Justified" then work of Christ Jesus is insufficient.
You as well have not really dealt with the status of "justified" as complete.

Where is your reasoning on how a person re-assumes a debt they have received as paid in full

So, back into the loss of salvation loop. Any arguments for or against loss of salvation are arguments for or against loss of justification. Saying justification is inviolable is not different than saying salvation is inviolable.

My point pertained to your statements:

only those who think salvation is not secure ultimately are arguing a person is saving themselves
.... and the work of Christ is insufficient to save.

• Here's the reasoning I think is poor - and I'll stick with the perspective of a believer & loss of salvation:
  • Christ's work is absolutely sufficient, and He is the one who saves
  • If someone decides to walk away it doesn't affect Christ's faithfulness or the sufficiency of His salvation
    • It remains sufficient but is not applicable to such person
• Then, in regard to the willingly abiding, enduring, faithful, obedient believer
  • Christ's work is absolutely sufficient, and He is the one who saves
  • The grace enabled abiding, enduring, faithful, obedient believer is cooperatively involved in his salvation,
    • Apart from Christ he can do nothing
    • As commanded under grace he in Faith-Obedience remains in union with Christ
• In neither of these cases is human will negated by God - rather in both of these cases human will is honored by God

 

[BillyBob]

I never argued that position but everyone born is foreordained but not everyone accepts the Gift of Salvation.

What do you mean by foreordained? Please explain and don't leave me in limbo!

 

[Kroogz]

The heart of the matter that most don't seem to understand. We get most of our input from inside ourselves - how we may think or feel about something - or from outside of us but inside this fallen world and its inhabitants, both seen and unseen. We're imperfect casts of Him existing in bodies of death surrounded by the same and attempting to comprehend how perfect character of perfect essence works in perfect harmony in all of its attributes - which you're identifying as INTEGRITY.

Then we pretend we fully understand and comprehend how perfect integrity of essence functions in omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence in union with the functional will of His creatures as we charge one another with ignorance.

It's astounding really.

Which is why we have the very clear and straightforward verses.

We will never perish.
There is no condemnation for believers.
WHOSOEVER believes shall be saved.
He reconciled the world to Himself.

Anyone can believe. And that believer will never perish.

Clear and precise.

Salvation and our eternal security is up for no debate. "INTEGRITY".........we can debate that till the cows come home.

 

[lrs68]

Then, I am still having trouble understanding what you mean when you say "but everyone born is foreordained".

Every person was meant by God to be born and to live for God. Sadly, most have rejected God like Romans 1 claims. Romans 1 claims God has manifested Himself to those who reject Him but they deny that He is God.

19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.

 

[studier]

Which is why we have the very clear and straightforward verses.

We will never perish.
There is no condemnation for believers.
WHOSOEVER believes shall be saved.
He reconciled the world to Himself.

Anyone can believe. And that believer will never perish.

Clear and precise.

Salvation and our eternal security is up for no debate. "INTEGRITY".........we can debate that till the cows come home.

I understand the argument and have read all the books.

Most all doctrines are debated, and our will is intact to believe what we want to believe. The longer I deal with all these things, the more important IMO is human will. It takes a perfect and powerful God who created it to deal with it and protect it to be what He created it to be. We're still not too good at understanding it and how He deals with it and what He requires from it.

 

[Rufus]

I do believe man's will is involved, so I know it makes sense to you to consider and label me a "FWer" but I don't think I tip the scale toward love as you say. I simply point out that God is love, which again seems very foundational, vs. other verses that say He hates something.

Also, FWIW, here's a little very simple detail from the Text - just from a search in English using the NKJ:

• Hatred is mentioned 16 times - none speak of God's hatred
• Hate* is mentioned 181 times - 16 non-repeating speak of God hating - 4 of which speak of God's hating people for something and all 16 have to do with some concept of sin.
• Love* is mentioned 573 times

So, again, FWIW, your focus on God hating people is very imbalanced.

So, if we are watching the Textual scale, God hating someone for something is certainly not the focus of our Text. Sure, it's a legitimate discussion, but seemingly not a very profound one.



Doing some of the above type work it's easy to see how you need to branch out looking at words to build your thin case for God hating people for something. So, you're looking at another word in Prov11:1, 20 typically translated as "abomination" and trending into abhor or detest and from there potentially picking up hate via English. So, a few more details:

• The Hebrew looks to be used 117 times - 5 speak of God seeing someone as an abomination for some reason associated with sin.

Once again, you're seemingly working quite hard to build a case for God hating people for some cause. And, again, a legitimate discussion, but not very profound.



Please, God is love, and His love is not all covenantal. Love is His person. Love is His nature, His character. When we're done with this silly mess of existence, we won't need to know Love vs. hate. Guess which one will never fall - never fail. Guess which one is so vast that an Apostle prayed for us to grasp and comprehend it.

"For some cause"? You don't know why God "hates"? Why did God think people were abominable to him in Prov 11:20? Could it possibly have something to do with their HEART condition? The human heart is not associated with sin? The human heart is lily-white and pure as the driven snow, is it?

I never said all God's love is "covenantal" There's a reason why the phrase "covenant of love" is found in the OT seven (7) times -- all pertaining to His CHOSEN COVENANT PEOPLE! It is these people, and these alone, who are adopted into God's family! The ungodly world is not part of God's covenant family. If the world were, Jesus would have prayed for the entire world in John 17 -- yet, he explicitly limited his prayer to the elect -- to the two flocks of sheep! If Jesus loved the world the way he loves his sheep, would he not have prayed for the entire world that he loves so dearly?

I suppose next you'll be telling us that God loves Satan and his demonic forces, since God is love, right?

And why are you waxing so naive with the term "hate", as though hatred is always an evil thing to do? God is also a jealous God, so does that mean God is sinful for being jealous?

 

[Rufus]

Every person was meant by God to be born and to live for God. Sadly, most have rejected God like Romans 1 claims. Romans 1 claims God has manifested Himself to those who reject Him but they deny that He is God.

19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.

But God did not decree (ordain) that all men live for Him! If God had ordained that, then all would be saved.

 

[Rufus]

I understand the argument and have read all the books.

Most all doctrines are debated, and our will is intact to believe what we want to believe. The longer I deal with all these things, the more important IMO is human will. It takes a perfect and powerful God who created it to deal with it and protect it to be what He created it to be. We're still not too good at understanding it and how He deals with it and what He requires from it.

But human will always take a back seat to God's will. The human will is as depraved as the human heart is. There is no intrinsic spiritual soundness in the sons of men. Is there any physical soundness to the wills of physically dead men?