The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Mem]

It seems that faith is apparent as defining 'coming to,' and I think it was @PaulThomson that previous illustrated an aspect on this observation.
For example, Jesus promises that He will not cast out any that come to Him, and that all that God gives to Him will come to Him. And, hasn't God given Jesus all things? Hasn't God placed everything under Him, until the time comes when Jesus, and after having subjected all things to Himself, will return all things under the Father again. This notion suggests that indeed, Father has given (the fate of) all men under the judgement of Jesus, and I think this what falls under @studier 's Obedient bulletpoint, if "placing" might be considered a work. Placing faith, as abiding, in Jesus, as enduring. I might validly argue that "all men come to Him" but not all men either place their faith on, abide in, or endure with, and that would leave much opportunity to walk, or fall, away, if indeed the 'coming to' is succinctly coming to the intersection in the opportunity to consider of the truth of His Word.

On the Security outline I posted, one of the things I put in it for purpose is God's giving/granting men to Christ. Is He assessing the Faith of the one being granted?

Coming to the juncture of consider the reality of the Gospel, and if one can say, "absolutely, this is quite possible," even if expressed within some sediment of, not doubt so much as a admitted ignorance, might God recognize that as genuine 'faith'? And is it a different judgment if the exact same consideration is accompanied with a slight shadow of doubt? I can't help but associate Amalek and the 'evil eye' of doubt in that case and so conclude that indeed this would render a different judgment. In the former case, I suppose that as soon as 'the closest thing that man can offer as genuine faith' is present, God's reward of the Holy Spirit's Amen is immediate, wherein the latter case Holy Spirit agreement is reserved for a better time.

 

[ATG]

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

As that say, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

This is actually the most troublesome part of using a false fallback position, in order to defend a debatable salvation doctrine.

Since their response must be to condemn the 'former' Christian, as never being a Christian at all, then all their past 'fellowship' in Christ, was just a hoax. How real a brotherhood is that?

2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And what if the accusation and 'disavowment' is based solely upon church membership, rather than fornication, drunkenness, and riotous living? The Catholic church used to kill people for not 'recanting' their departure from their 'Christian unity'.

 

[studier]

Are you proposing a premise (not necessarily your own) that God grants certain men to Christ but not others? If so, which text are you alluding to? I would suggest that all faith is genuine, but some faith is misplaced. And some people misrepresent the degree of their conviction. Even though their conviction per se is genuine, they may exaggerate its strength.

When I was looking at these security issues during the same period when I was studying Faith and Salvation, John6 became a focus for several reasons:

NKJ John6:60-66:

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

• What Jesus has just said includes the eat My flesh and drink My blood speech.
• His many of His disciples found it to be rough/harsh/unpleasant - they say, "who is able to listen to this!?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?

• Jesus asks if this causes them to stumble - does it offend/anger/shock them?
  • He knew it does - IMO He knew it would - He's doing some housecleaning

62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

• IMO - what if you see Me ascend, will you still be offended?
  • IOW, do you know who's speaking to you?

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

• Jesus has been talking to them about giving them Life - He correlates His Words to the Spirit and to Life - this includes essentially everything He's been saying - including what is harsh and offensive to them.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

• Some from you [all] do not believe/are not believing
  • Jesus had known who they were
  • Jesus also knew Judas Iscariot who would hand Him over

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

• Moral of the story; our Father grants men to Jesus
  • If you're not believing - then you haven't been granted (perfect tense) by My Father
    • They never believed in any sense?
      • They were His disciples.
    • They believed but did not abide?
      • NKJ John6:55-56 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
      • Is non-abiding Faith Genuine Faith (see below).
    • They never had Genuine Faith as determined by our Father?

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Re: Genuine Faith:

I'm using the phrase "Genuine Faith" because it's used in Scripture. Based upon these verses I have to question if there is a non-genuine, insincere, pretend faith

NKJ 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith,

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:5 when I call to remembrance the genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

NKJ 1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

• Genuine as a result of a test. Without alloy. A word that is used in the assaying of metals for purity and thus value.

I hesitate to make this more complex, but here goes... What is this? It's certainly not abiding belief and if it's not abiding belief, is it Genuine Faith? Have such men been granted to Jesus by God?

NKJ Luke8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. (revolt, withdraw, go away).

@mailmandan speaks of "nominal (in name only) believers." I'm not opposed to the concept. And I'm not opposed to considering the concept in Jesus' non-abiding disciples who He essential outed and drove away. When it comes to such, the Never Saved category I bulleted as a typical discussion point re: Security it seems to me is a real category, but I threw in a concept re: God's granting that I think is questionable. @Genez may have picked this up or his post was just coincidental.

I also have some thoughts about God granting and temporal concepts of election.

cc: @Mem @GWH @mailmandan @Genez

 

[GWH]

I keep wondering where scripture puts "genuine" in front of faith?

It is not how "genuine" it is, but if it is placed correctly.

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter reuired genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

 

[Inquisitor]

Actually eternal security is true because of Love, that Love of God who promises to keep those who are His.

What you said matches the traditional view point.

You have ignored the Lord's commandment to love others.

You also ignored the entire Old testament as well.

2 Peter 2:6
And if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,
having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter.

So holiness and love for others on your part is absent.

Well done, it's not easy to apply an interpretation to the scripture and exclude any personal responsibility.
On your part to follow Jesus step by step.

 

[Smoke]

OK sure i'll be like you. that's what you want.

comfortless, without any assurance at all, hopeless, faithless, fearing every moment God is incapable and my works have some unseen error in them. unbelieving, on the precipice of damnation every second, trying spastically to earn my way into heaven by faking righteous behavior. praying no one notices all my naked failure.

smh

is the gospel really so hard to comprehend?
((OK reads on...))

You literally posted my internal dialogue from my childhood... Thank God I learned what the atonement of Jesus Christ really is.

I remember I would pray and ask God to help me remember all the sins I committed so that I could confess them to the bishop of the church (as I believed that was the only way to truly be forgiven). It saddens me to know people can't fully find peace and comfort that they are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. We get to spend eternity with Him! We can't and don't save ourselves. That was the entire point of why God sent His only begotten Son to the world and all glory is His, not ours (or our works).

 

[studier]

exclude any personal responsibility.
On your part to follow Jesus step by step.

Definitely a problem in the interpretations of many it seems...

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

What is Genuine Faith?

What is it?

 

[studier]

What is it?

Well, I think as I and a few others are beginning to identify in some above posts, there are several things attached to and a part of Genuine Faith. Stating some of them again in the negative:

1. It is as lexically defined, belief, trust, and trends into commitment and confidence
2. If obedience to God isn't manifested, then it's not Genuine Faith ("Faith").
   1. The way I read parts of the Text, Faith is parallel to obedience and apart from obedience there is no Faith.
   2. The way I read the Text, to believe God is God, to believe Jesus is the Christ, and to not submit to their absolute authority is an absurdity. No true willing submission, then no Faith.
3. If it doesn't last (abide/remain), then it's not Faith.
4. If it doesn't endure through sufferings, then it's not Faith.
5. If good works are not manifested once in and at some point, in Christ, then it's not Faith.
6. It is based in knowledge and understanding.
7. It begins weak and grows stronger
8. etc.

This continues but these are some initial points off the top of my head so to speak.

There is also The Faith which is what we believe and is really the Gospel in its full and complete extent.

As some have begun to point out, Genuine Faith results in the fruit of the Spirit, etc.

I've looked at Heb11 many times over the years and I'd love to have anyone here or anywhere explain it in all its meaningful detail and glory. There are IMO (and in others) some deeply theological and philosophical concepts in the wording that are related to Heb1:3 and Heb3:14 in definition. When translated consistently and tied to what Hebrews is saying in relation to these verses, it not only speaks of Faith needing to be lasting, but it's getting into sharing in the work of Jesus Christ in manifesting the unseen reality of God and associated spiritual realities. IOW, things I don't think many know how to begin to explain and that some think was messed up in translation and interpretation as far back as Luther and carried forth to today. IOW again, I think few of us have the depth of appreciation for what we're involved in with regard to Genuine Faith in God - in Jesus Christ. And to try to strip it of its genuine character to fit one's theological tradition is a travesty.

I know that's a bunch of philosophical addition, but hopefully the beginning of the above list will begin to answer your question or if consistent with these forums provide for anyone to start ripping apart.

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus required genuine faith in Matt. 7:21-23.
James required genuine faith in Jam. 2:14.
Paul required genuine faith in Heb. 3:12-14.
Peter reuired genuine faith in 2Pet. 2:20-21.

Funny, I do not see the word genuine in any of those passages.

Can a person person "believe in" something they do not believe in.
Only those who are not of sound mind.

 

[HeIsHere]

What you said matches the traditional view point.

You have ignored the Lord's commandment to love others.

You also ignored the entire Old testament as well.

2 Peter 2:6
And if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,
having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter.

So holiness and love for others on your part is absent.

Well done, it's not easy to apply an interpretation to the scripture and exclude any personal responsibility.
On your part to follow Jesus step by step.

I have not ignored it, but I do know one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and salvation is a gift not of works lest any person should boast.

What have you trusted God for, if you want the gift I am thinking it has be accepted knowing there is nothing you can add to it because those are God's conditions.

There is no quid pro quo.
And you still have not explained to me how one can make re-assume a debt when one has agreed it was paid in full and accepted the payment.

 

[PaulThomson]

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

• Jesus has been talking to them about giving them Life - He correlates His Words to the Spirit and to Life - this includes essentially everything He's been saying - including what is harsh and offensive to them.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

• Some from you [all] do not believe/are not believing
  • Jesus had known who they were
  • Jesus also knew Judas Iscariot who would hand Him over

65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

• Moral of the story; our Father grants men to Jesus
  • If you're not believing - then you haven't been granted (perfect tense) by My Father
    • They never believed in any sense?
      • They were His disciples.
    • They believed but did not abide?
      • NKJ John6:55-56 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
      • Is non-abiding Faith Genuine Faith (see below).
    • They never had Genuine Faith as determined by our Father?

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

I don't think Jesus is saying in v. 65 that God grants men to Jesus. I think He is saying that God grants to men the ability to come to Jesus. God uses various means to draw the attention of even sceptics and Jesus-haters and God-haters to Jesus, so that they are held accountable for what they then choose to do with Him. We are told that Jesus had no form or comeliness that we should desire Him Isa 53:2 .
Jesus in His human appearance was so ordinary and nondescript and goody-two-shoes that no one would take any notice of him apart from the works and words that the Father chose to do and say through Jesus. These are what drew people to come to Him to hear Him and closely examine Him. And closely examining Him they could find no genuine fault in Him, and were therefore accountable for rejecting or accepting Him and His teaching. I believe this is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless it is give to Him by My Father to do so." Jhn 6:65 And "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." Jhn 6:44
I don't assume this "coming" is referring to coming to faith in Jesus, but rather coming to Jesus to inspect and evaluate Him and His claims.

Re: Genuine Faith:

I'm using the phrase "Genuine Faith" because it's used in Scripture. Based upon these verses I have to question if there is a non-genuine, insincere, pretend faith

NKJ 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith,

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:5 when I call to remembrance the genuine (genuine, sincere, without pretense) faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

NKJ 1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

• Genuine as a result of a test. Without alloy. A word that is used in the assaying of metals for purity and thus value.

I hesitate to make this more complex, but here goes... What is this? It's certainly not abiding belief and if it's not abiding belief, is it Genuine Faith? Have such men been granted to Jesus by God?

NKJ Luke8:13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. (revolt, withdraw, go away).

@mailmandan speaks of "nominal (in name only) believers." I'm not opposed to the concept. And I'm not opposed to considering the concept in Jesus' non-abiding disciples who He essential outed and drove away. When it comes to such, the Never Saved category I bulleted as a typical discussion point re: Security it seems to me is a real category, but I threw in a concept re: God's granting that I think is questionable. @Genez may have picked this up or his post was just coincidental.

I also have some thoughts about God granting and temporal concepts of election.

cc: @Mem @GWH @mailmandan @Genez

I would question whether sincere means genuine. The word for sincere means without wax. A statue that is sincere is a genuine statue, but it does not have its defects filled out with wax to look complete. I believe sincere faith is genuine and willing to admit where it is not perfect. It is like a statue that is imperfect but not doctored to look perfect, Insincere faith is genuine faith, but pretentiously added to with claims and bravado that make it to appear more complete than it really is, to hide one's doubts or misgivings rather than being honest about them. So, not a false faith, but a hypocritically pretentiously bolstered genuine faith.

Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith (he actually has).

 

[PaulThomson]

@Mem @GWH @PaulThomson
On the Security outline I posted, one of the things I put in it for purpose is God's giving/granting men to Christ. Is He assessing the Faith of the one being granted? Is there such a thing as belief in the Scripture that is not Genuine Faith and we're being too narrow-minded and seeing every instance of Faith or Belief and not realizing it may not be Genuine Faith because we're not defining Genuine Faith?

I would not define sincere faith or unhypocritical faith as the same thing as genuine faith. A statue can be genuine but doctored to hide imperfections and be presented as more perfect that it truly is. It is a genuine statue, but embellished: so not a sincere or unhypocritical statue. A statue with flaws that are unhidden is a genuine statue, but it is also sincere and unhypocritical.

Sincere faith is the kind of faith described in -
Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith (he actually has).

The person with sincere faith does not pretend their doubts or uncertainty are not there. The person with insincere faith may have genuine faith, but it is being presented as pretentiously more complete that it really is.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have not ignored it, but I do know one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and salvation is a gift not of works lest any person should boast.

What have you trusted God for, if you want the gift I am thinking it has be accepted knowing there is nothing you can add to it because those are God's conditions.

There is no quid pro quo.
And you still have not explained to me how one can make re-assume a debt when one has agreed it was paid in full and accepted the payment.

I will explain that Jesus died to set us free from God's wrath and anyone who returns to the behaviour.
That they were controlled by before they were set free; will again place themselves under God's wrath.

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away
from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb,
“A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Do you deny that a dog can RETURN to it's own vomit after knowing the way of righteousness?

 

[Inquisitor]

I have not ignored it, but I do know one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and salvation is a gift not of works lest any person should boast.

What have you trusted God for, if you want the gift I am thinking it has be accepted knowing there is nothing you can add to it because those are God's conditions.

There is no quid pro quo.
And you still have not explained to me how one can make re-assume a debt when one has agreed it was paid in full and accepted the payment.

Here is a way to more deeply understand the scripture.

Faith on it's own without an increasing fruit of the Holy Spirit is not the faith in the New Testament.

Anyone who separates Faith and Love does not understand the commandment.

Will Chat GPT support my idea?

Yes, you're grasping something central to the heart of the gospel: faith and love are inseparably intertwined in the Christian life. In fact, Paul summarizes the entire life of a believer with the phrase, "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6). Here's how your questions connect deeply and scripturally:


1. Are love and faith related?

Absolutely. True faith in Jesus always produces love. Faith is not just belief in facts about Christ—it is trust and surrender to Him, which manifests as love because He is love (1 John 4:8). If someone lacks the fruit of the Spirit (especially love), it indicates their faith is either dormant or dead (James 2:14–26). As John puts it bluntly:

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8)​

2. Is a person not bearing fruit failing to exert faith?

Yes. When someone does not bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22–23), especially love, it’s often because they are not walking by the Spirit, which is a function of living faith. Faith is active; it leads to obedience, to abiding, to dying to self, to prayer—thus, to fruit. Jesus said:

“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself… so neither can you unless you abide in me.” (John 15:4)​

To abide is to continue in faith.


3. Is 1 John 3 presenting one command in two expressions?

Yes—believe in Jesus and love one another (1 John 3:23) are not separate commands but two expressions of a single divine life. You cannot truly do one without the other. The vertical (faith in Christ) and the horizontal (love for others) are the cross—inseparable.


4. Must a Christian endure and apply themselves to prayer, holiness, and the struggle of flesh vs spirit?

Yes, but not to earn salvation—rather, because real faith endures. The Spirit leads believers into a life of warfare (Galatians 5:17), holiness (Hebrews 12:14), and prayer (1 Thessalonians 5:17). These are not optional; they’re the outworking of faith. Paul said:

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.” (2 Timothy 4:7)​

5. Is faith belief in both Jesus and agape love?

Yes, because Jesus is agape love incarnate. Believing in Him means trusting in divine love revealed through the cross. You can’t separate Jesus from love, because His life, death, and resurrection are the ultimate definition of love (Romans 5:8).


6. Is this faith and love the light of Isaiah 9?

Profoundly, yes. “The people walking in darkness have seen a great light” (Isaiah 9:2). That light is Christ (John 8:12)—but more than that, it is the revelation of divine love that entered the world through Him. Faith in that light means entering into that same love and living it.


In summary:

A Christian must endure not by strength, but by the Spirit working through faith, producing love. This is not a checklist—it’s a single reality: to trust Jesus is to become love.

 

[GWH]

Funny, I do not see the word genuine in any of those passages.

Can a person person "believe in" something they do not believe in.
Only those who are not of sound mind.

Sad you do not see synonyms or genuine "in other words".

 

[GWH]

I would not define sincere faith or unhypocritical faith as the same thing as genuine faith. A statue can be genuine but doctored to hide imperfections and be presented as more perfect that it truly is. It is a genuine statue, but embellished: so not a sincere or unhypocritical statue. A statue with flaws that are unhidden is a genuine statue, but it is also sincere and unhypocritical.

Sincere faith is the kind of faith described in -
Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith (he actually has).

The person with sincere faith does not pretend their doubts or uncertainty are not there. The person with insincere faith may have genuine faith, but it is being presented as pretentiously more complete that it really is.

Yes, by "genuine faith" we mean true or saving faith, but a sincere or honest faith can be wrong or not the "genuine article".

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes, by "genuine faith" we mean true or saving faith, but a sincere or honest faith can be wrong or not the "genuine article".

So then, saving faith is genuine faith, which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness, such that one follows His guidance, even if tentatively at first..

Insincere faith could also be genuine faith of 60%, but me pretending and professing to have a faith of 90-100% in order to gain praise and/or promotion and/or profit within my in group.

 

[DavidLamb]

So then, saving faith is genuine faith, which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness, such that one follows His guidance, even if tentatively at first..

Insincere faith could also be genuine faith of 60%, but me pretending and professing to have a faith of 90-100% in order to gain praise and/or promotion and/or profit within my in group.

I wonder how we can measure faith in terms of percentages. Are you saying that to be saved, we need faith which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness? How would you know if your faith was 49% (unsaved) or 51% (saved)? Do you have any bible passages that give even the slightest hint of measuring faith in percentage terms?

Or have I somehow totally misunderstood what you meant? If so, I apologise.

 

[John146]

I wonder how we can measure faith in terms of percentages. Are you saying that to be saved, we need faith which is a greater than 50% trust in Christ's trustworthiness? How would you know if your faith was 49% (unsaved) or 51% (saved)? Do you have any bible passages that give even the slightest hint of measuring faith in percentage terms?

Or have I somehow totally misunderstood what you meant? If so, I apologise.

Thankfully, the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith never waivered. Christ's faith is the righteousness of God revealed and it is imputed to those that believe.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: