Loss of salvation???

[GWH]

In a manner of speaking, I agree with you. Christ is the same across the two Gospels. He died for all. Faith is also a common element across all, spanning all the way back to Abraham, and before him to Abel.

What is so vastly different between Peter's and James' Gospel and Paul's Gospel is works, especially water "baptism unto the remission of sins." That absolutely is not at all couched within Paul's Gospel to the Gentiles.

So, this does indeed feed into the topic of this thread, in that nobody can lose their salvation if they ever had it to begin with. For them to say that they can is to try and establish a system of works-based salvation. That cheapens the seal of Holy Spirit upon all who are saved. That system of belief is bankrupt and without scriptural merit.

Please do share your thoughts, and thank you for them.

MM

Re "nobody can lose their salvation if they ever had it to begin with. For them to say that they can is to try and establish a system of works-based salvation": Yes, if they say "accidentally lose", but no, if they say "intentionally repudiate" as indicated by Heb. 6:4-6.

Also no, if they say there is no qualitative difference between non-meritorious faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[Genez]

THIS IS ONE SALVATION THAT A BELIEVER CAN LOSE..... AND MANY DO LOSE.


1 Peter 1:6-9

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief
in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater
worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and
honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even
though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and
glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


The only way they can secure this salvation?
2 Peter 3:18 - is to be continuously growing in grace and knowledge of sound doctrine.


Jesus warned....... few find it.

 

[studier]

If Omniscient God does the saving?
And, we are given to the Son by the Father?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me"​

(John 6:37)​

Why would the Father give His Son a gift?
That only later He will have to take back and thrown out?

That would be a pretty dumb omniscient God, if you ask me.

​

​

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me ​

I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my ​

will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those ​

he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

Jesus said that he would lose NONE!

grace and peace ...............

Good question.

It's the type of question I'm trying to flush out by approaching the various views about Security based upon the reasoning I think each of these views includes. Maybe my reasoning is wrong or incomplete. Maybe it's not. There are some assumptions included and you've touched on one.

So, what you seem to be asking rhetorically - as I've highlighted above - is whether the highlighted portion of the outlined text below makes any sense according to Scripture. I agree that this is a good question to ask.

For example, if the portions of John that speak of the Father giving men to Jesus are general principles of how things still work, then a person is placed in Christ by God, and if he later walks away, then God has given to Jesus a man who believes then walks away into unbelief.

God can do this, but does He?

If He doesn't, then we need to adjust the reasoning below. But I won't adjust it myself, unless it's proven by Scripture.

Can lose salvation.

1. Can and do walk away.
   1. Human choice
      1. Believe > Don’t believe.
      2. Saved > Lose salvation – because cannot lose what never had.
      3. Commands have imperatival force.
         1. Disobedience
         2. Obedience is not optional.
   2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
      1. God grants temporary believers to Christ.
   3. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
      1. Secure while obedient
2. Can but do not walk away
   1. Human choice
      1. Believe > Believe.
      2. Commands have imperatival force.
         1. Obedience
         2. Obedience is not optional.
   2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
      1. God grants abiding believers to Christ.
   3. So, can or cannot know if saved until the end?
      1. Secure in obedience

 

[studier]

THIS IS ONE SALVATION THAT A BELIEVER CAN LOSE..... AND MANY DO LOSE.


1 Peter 1:6-9

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief
in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater
worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and
honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even
though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and
glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


The only way they can secure this salvation?
2 Peter 3:18 - is to be continuously growing in grace and knowledge of sound doctrine.


Jesus warned....... few find it.

What salvation is that?

 

[studier]

Fixed one section below (alignment of Never Saved)

So, how does it really work?

RE: Eternal Security

1. Cannot lose salvation.
   1. Cannot walk away.
      1. No human choice
         1. Commands have no imperatival force.
         2. Obedience optional.
   2. Can walk away but cannot refuse repentance.
      1. No human choice
         1. Commands have no imperatival force.
         2. Obedience optional.
   3. Can walk away & can refuse repentance.
      1. Saved but disciplined unto death – lose rewards.
         1. No human choice re: salvation
            1. Commands have imperatival force - only if mean lose rewards.
            2. Obedience optional re: salvation.
      2. Never saved.
         1. Human choice
            1. Never believed.
            2. Commands have imperatival force.
               1. Disobedience
               2. Obedience is not optional.
         2. God knows before granting to Christ – Doesn’t grant.
            1. God does not grant unbelievers to Christ.
         3. Cannot lose salvation – because never saved.
         4. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
2. Can lose salvation.
   1. Can and do walk away.
      1. Human choice
         1. Believe > Don’t believe.
         2. Saved > Lose salvation – because cannot lose what never had.
         3. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Disobedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
         1. God grants temporary believers to Christ.
      3. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
         1. Secure while obedient
   2. Can but do not walk away
      1. Human choice
         1. Believe > Believe.
         2. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Obedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
         1. God grants abiding believers to Christ.
      3. So, can or cannot know if saved until the end?
         1. Secure in obedience

Or???

 

[UnoiAmarah]

RE: Eternal Security

If a person has eternal security then they always had it and there wouldn't be any need to obtain it. Eternal and everlasting are two different terms defining two different attributes.

 

[studier]

If a person has eternal security then they always had it and there wouldn't be any need to obtain it. Eternal and everlasting are two different terms defining two different attributes.

I'm just using common and recognizable theological jargon. Note I'm at times just saying "Security" but I'm surely open to refining whatever makes sense to be Biblically accurate. I've also not used "OSAS".

 

[PaulThomson]

Thanks for this. The thing that strikes me in reading it is our limited capacity to find and read all the things men have written over millennia. And this lack of capacity is what AI is working to resolve. But it's still a two-edged sword because so much has been written - both good and bad - correct and incorrect. And as I understand, this is where AI is headed, to think more on its own and not be simply a powerful compiler.

The irony seems to be that some desire it to be god and the more it becomes like one we'll need a more finely tuned relationship with the Spirit of God to be best discerning.

I've said it before, but in a way, I'm looking forward to some kid or system creating the code to work through the myriads of interlinking tasks involved in analyzing and translating the Text accurately. From what I've seen God will let us use tech for good while his antagonists use it for bad. AI is just the next step in the same thing.

And generally, the sects that have the most unbiblical theories write the most voluminously, because they have a lot of work to do post hoc rationalising how the scriptures need to be complexly interpreted to fit their theories into them.

 

[Genez]

What salvation is that?

It's there!
Read it again, please....

1 Peter 1:6-9​

​

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief​

in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater
worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and
honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even
though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and
glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. .​

​

The salvation of our soul is the reward of having matured in Christ by constantly growing by grace in truth, and reaching the goal of overcoming the evils that exist
for your given generation that you will be exposed to. God planned it.

 

[PaulThomson]

Re "nobody can lose their salvation if they ever had it to begin with. For them to say that they can is to try and establish a system of works-based salvation": Yes, if they say "accidentally lose", but no, if they say "intentionally repudiate" as indicated by Heb. 6:4-6.

Also no, if they say there is no qualitative difference between non-meritorious faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Luke 15

The lost sheep accidentally lost its salvation, and was brought to repentance by the shepherd.
The wayward son intentionally repudiated his salvation, and was brought to repentance by deteriorating circumstances.

 

[PaulThomson]

So, how does it really work?

RE: Eternal Security

1. Cannot lose salvation.
   1. Cannot walk away.
      1. No human choice
         1. Commands have no imperatival force.
         2. Obedience optional.
   2. Can walk away but cannot refuse repentance.
      1. No human choice
         1. Commands have no imperatival force.
         2. Obedience optional.
   3. Can walk away & can refuse repentance.
      1. Saved but disciplined unto death – lose rewards.
         1. No human choice re: salvation
            1. Commands have imperatival force - only if mean lose rewards.
            2. Obedience optional re: salvation.
   4. Never saved.
      1. Human choice
         1. Never believed.
         2. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Disobedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Doesn’t grant.
         1. God does not grant unbelievers to Christ.
      3. Cannot lose salvation – because never saved.
      4. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
2. Can lose salvation.
   1. Can and do walk away.
      1. Human choice
         1. Believe > Don’t believe.
         2. Saved > Lose salvation – because cannot lose what never had.
         3. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Disobedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
         1. God grants temporary believers to Christ.
      3. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
         1. Secure while obedient
   2. Can but do not walk away
      1. Human choice
         1. Believe > Believe.
         2. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Obedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
         1. God grants abiding believers to Christ.
      3. So, can or cannot know if saved until the end?
         1. Secure in obedience

Or???

I think the focus on obedience distracts from the primary distinctive of the saved person, which is agape love toward God and others. Yes, if we love we will obey. the secondary commands. But it is possible to obey the multiple secondary commands with attitudes that fall well short of agape love. One can consider they have proof of salvation by obeying multiple secondary commands, but all the while neglecting the primary command. But if one obeys the primary command to love, all the other commands will be done, because they are expressions of love.

I believe God intends our assurance to come from seeing love at wrk in and through us. And God intends that we feel insecure when we are not walking in love. That insecurity is supposed to drive us to Him to learn how to think of others in a way that produces love for them.

1Jo 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1Jo 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

1Jo 3:16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And by this we know[fn] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

1Jo 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[fn] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

I would say "Being loved and loving now does not assure of salvation now." Which contradicts scripture.
Secure while being loved and loving." Which agrees with scripture.
And "Secure in being loved and loving." Which agrees with scripture."

 

[PaulThomson]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

Salvation (sOtEria) from the root sOzein, to be made whole.

There are many ways God can save a person. He can free an ensnared person. He can deliver an imprisoned person. He can heal a sick person. He can make whole a maimed person. He can give peace to a tormented person. He can give understanding of truth to a deceived person. He can forgive and heal the conscience of the sinner. All of these forms of salvation can be subsequently stolen from the saved person, but they are all made available and effected by the finished work of Christ on the cross.

What is the particular form of salvation, that you are concerned about losing, you are asking about in this OP ?

 

[GWH]

Luke 15

The lost sheep accidentally lost its salvation, and was brought to repentance by the shepherd.
The wayward son intentionally repudiated his salvation, and was brought to repentance by deteriorating circumstances.

You ignore the logical implication of the semantics. If the sheep and son had never repented,
they would be as indicated by Heb. 6:4-6. Saints may sin (Luke 15); apostates will never repent,
having thereby committed the unforgivable blasphemy (Matt. 12:31).

 

[PaulThomson]

You ignore the logical implication of the semantics. If the sheep and son had never repented,
they would be as indicated by Heb. 6:4-6. Saints may sin (Luke 15); apostates will never repent,
having thereby committed the unforgivable blasphemy (Matt. 12:31).

There is no unforgivable blasphemy. There is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, a sin unto death, which is not pre-emptively covered by the cross and which will not be forgiven while it is being practised.

That is not "unforgivable". That is "unforgiven".

I accept your right to presuppose theological axioms and impose them onto scripture. But I don't agree that your axiom here is self-evident. So, I don't feel rationally compelled to agree with your conclusions.

 

[studier]

I think the focus on obedience distracts from the primary distinctive of the saved person, which is agape love toward God and others. Yes, if we love we will obey. the secondary commands. But it is possible to obey the multiple secondary commands with attitudes that fall well short of agape love. One can consider they have proof of salvation by obeying multiple secondary commands, but all the while neglecting the primary command. But if one obeys the primary command to love, all the other commands will be done, because they are expressions of love.

I believe God intends our assurance to come from seeing love at wrk in and through us. And God intends that we feel insecure when we are not walking in love. That insecurity is supposed to drive us to Him to learn how to think of others in a way that produces love for them.

1Jo 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1Jo 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

1Jo 3:16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And by this we know[fn] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

1Jo 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[fn] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

I would say "Being loved and loving now does not assure of salvation now." Which contradicts scripture.
Secure while being loved and loving." Which agrees with scripture.
And "Secure in being loved and loving." Which agrees with scripture."

I've no disagreement with love being the focus in Scripture. What I'm trying to deal with is what these 2 very distinct views of Security mean. Yes, we could say one view loves and the other doesn't, but from my experience, then we get into a crazy discussion defining love.

I was led years ago to go through the entire NC verse by verse and note in the margin every time I saw the concept of obedience there. It was quite illuminating. I found it to be connected to or at root of nearly every major word or phrase in the NC.

On the outline, I'm attempting to look at some of the arguments that I see being made knowingly or unknowingly for and against Security. One of the main arguments I see pertains to human volition - if we cannot lose, then we have no choice. Another thing I keep seeing is what seems to me to be a dance around the topic of commandments. So, I'm focusing here because volition and obedience are 2 main, very basic and easily defined concepts.

Back to love and obedience, this is what I'm referring to:

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

• This is a command to love in work and truth.
• If we are loving in this manner, whether we know it or not, we are being obedient to God

1Jo 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

• We know we know Him if we are obeying Him (keeping tēreō at its base conceptually)

1Jo 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

• Whoever obeys His word, the love of/for God is perfected/completed in him < By this we know we are in Him (abiding).

Once again, obedience is virtually everywhere and apart from it there is no love, no faith, no children of God, no salvation, no godliness, no righteousness, etc......

IMO you're making a mistake when you narrow down to this, "Yes, if we love we will obey. the secondary commands." I can just as easily say from the Text, if you obey, then you'll love, or if you're loving <> you're obeying. And this is part of what I mean when we get into discussing love.

I've a suggestion; I posted this outline on 2 different threads. I probably should have just started a new one. Why don't we switch to the other one to keep the discussion simple if we're going to continue it. I'd appreciate your input re: the reasoning and logic. I'm going to respond to your posts there.

 

[studier]

It's there!
Read it again, please....

1 Peter 1:6-9​

​

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief​

in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater​

worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and​

honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even​

though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and​

glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. .​

​

The salvation of our soul is the reward of having matured in Christ by constantly growing by grace in truth, and reaching the goal of overcoming the evils that exist
for your given generation that you will be exposed to. God planned it.

Thanks, I read it. I wanted you to explain what you think it means, which you've now done.

No comment for now on agreement or disagreement of its meaning or extent of its meaning.

Thanks again.

 

[GWH]

There is no unforgivable blasphemy. There is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, a sin unto death, which is not pre-emptively covered by the cross and which will not be forgiven while it is being practised.

That is not "unforgivable". That is "unforgiven".

I accept your right to presuppose theological axioms and impose them onto scripture. But I don't agree that your axiom here is self-evident. So, I don't feel rationally compelled to agree with your conclusions.

Okay, "unforgiven while being practiced" works for me.
Does "such blasphemy (per Matt. 12:32 and Heb. 6:4-6) will always be practiced" work for you?

 

[PaulThomson]

Okay, "unforgiven while being practiced" works for me.
Does "such blasphemy (per Matt. 12:32 and Heb. 6:4-6) will always be practiced" work for you?

No.
"Will always be practised" is not in either of those texts.

 

[PaulThomson]

It's there!
Read it again, please....

1 Peter 1:6-9​

​

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief​

in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater​

worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and​

honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even​

though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and​

glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. .​

​

The salvation of our soul is the reward of having matured in Christ by constantly growing by grace in truth, and reaching the goal of overcoming the evils that exist
for your given generation that you will be exposed to. God planned it.

Or is the salvation of your souls the process of becoming more Christlike as out mind is renewed and the body is brought into submission to the renewing mind enlightened by the Soirit.? Maybe this is the salvation we are in the process of receiving as we patiently bear suffering for His sake.

 

[studier]

@PaulThomson I've changed my mind. I think I'll remain on this thread re: any discussion pertaining to the Security Outline. The other thread seems to have gotten off into Faith for the moment. Sorry for the confusion.