Saved by faith alone?
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I'm not sure if the person I was responding to was looking at obedience to water baptism as the means of salvation or if he was looking at believing in the Lord as the proper response to His atoning death, burial and resurrection.
I'm not certain of your response either, but I agree with your statement that believers are supposed to be baptized, however faith in the Object of salvation should be Jesus the Savior, not baptism, the obedience demonstrated that follows the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because of that faith..
I'm not certain of your response either, but I agree with your statement that believers are supposed to be baptized, however faith in the Object of salvation should be Jesus the Savior, not baptism, the obedience demonstrated that follows the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because of that faith..
Exactly
I was just hoping our friend would see the Object of the verse is the Lord, not faith in the baptism or obedience to the command or example of baptism.
What the pastors I've heard often do is conflate what believers/ saved should do with what is required of unbelievers. Have you been to churches that make the many commands for walking with the Lord as requirements for salvation?
I was just hoping our friend would see the Object of the verse is the Lord, not faith in the baptism or obedience to the command or example of baptism.
What the pastors I've heard often do is conflate what believers/ saved should do with what is required of unbelievers. Have you been to churches that make the many commands for walking with the Lord as requirements for salvation?
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"rightly understood"?
What does this mean?
What things must I accept in your theology to earn salvation?
I assume not accepting your theology would condemn me.
I will assume that you mean more than simple mental acceptance of the historical Jesus Christ. Correct?
It seems your "rightly understood" demand is rather like works.
Could you list and in what order and to what degree must I embrace these "rightly understood" commands?
What does this mean?
What things must I accept in your theology to earn salvation?
I assume not accepting your theology would condemn me.
I will assume that you mean more than simple mental acceptance of the historical Jesus Christ. Correct?
It seems your "rightly understood" demand is rather like works.
Could you list and in what order and to what degree must I embrace these "rightly understood" commands?
Faith (righly understood) in Jesus Christ alone = trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Not Jesus Christ + something else (works) but Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Have you placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation or are you also trusting in works for salvation?
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I believe the term false believers would be a better label.
There is a major difference between a believer, unbeliever and a false believer.
An atheist is a unbeliever and would never desire to be baptized.
A Pharisee is a false believer who would want something for being baptized.
A believer would simply want to be baptized from a humble heart, wanting to obey his Lord.
Hence the first and second clauses of Mark 16:16.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Adding a extra "and" to the second clause would be a simple waste of ink.
Nice try though.
There is a major difference between a believer, unbeliever and a false believer.
An atheist is a unbeliever and would never desire to be baptized.
A Pharisee is a false believer who would want something for being baptized.
A believer would simply want to be baptized from a humble heart, wanting to obey his Lord.
Hence the first and second clauses of Mark 16:16.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Adding a extra "and" to the second clause would be a simple waste of ink.
Nice try though.
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I doubt very much that you even believe that definition.
You are like most faith alone regeneration theology pushers.
They say, "Just trust that Jesus will save you and He is bound to save you"
Then comes the buts:
But you have to trust 100% don't ask what that means or you are not trusting.
But you have to say this sinner's prayer and with 100% sincerity and don't ask how you will know if you are sincere enough.
But don't forget to repent, if you don't repent you will perish.
But don't forget to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord or you won't be saved.
But remember to believe that Jesus was bodily raised from the dead.
But most of all believe in the correct Jesus, you know the one born of a virgin, who is fully man and fully God.
Oh I forgot. If you obey God for anything it better be for something other than salvation. We don't care what you read in the Bible.
You are like most faith alone regeneration theology pushers.
They say, "Just trust that Jesus will save you and He is bound to save you"
Then comes the buts:
But you have to trust 100% don't ask what that means or you are not trusting.
But you have to say this sinner's prayer and with 100% sincerity and don't ask how you will know if you are sincere enough.
But don't forget to repent, if you don't repent you will perish.
But don't forget to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord or you won't be saved.
But remember to believe that Jesus was bodily raised from the dead.
But most of all believe in the correct Jesus, you know the one born of a virgin, who is fully man and fully God.
Oh I forgot. If you obey God for anything it better be for something other than salvation. We don't care what you read in the Bible.
Does the verse say that though?
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Consider the woman in Luke 7. She departed and was not baptized before leaving Jesus sight.
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Consider the woman in Luke 7. She departed and was not baptized before leaving Jesus sight.
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
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No, I rephrased it to make a point about the subject of salvation in that sentence. Lack of faith in Mark 16:16 is what condemns. Baptism is a subsequent demonstration, but not a required sacrament required for salvation.
I agree with your point about faith being emphasized, and her not being baptized. The 100 times in the KJV the word believe is used as it's the book of the Bible written to unbelievers.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20
When you brought up Mark 16:16, I was wondering if you were going to use that as a proof text for baptismal regeneration/ works salvation.
That seems to be the first verse that is used by people like the poor lady who is on her death bed now with advanced cancer. She seemed hungry for God's Word and used to travel a long distance to my Bible classes. I was unsuccessful about convincing her that the Biblical response to the gospel (1Corinthians 1-4) was to believe/ have faith/ trust the Lord Jesus Christ. Right now I'm grieved about her passing and nobody can witness to her. She's not taking calls or visitors.
I agree with your point about faith being emphasized, and her not being baptized. The 100 times in the KJV the word believe is used as it's the book of the Bible written to unbelievers.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20
When you brought up Mark 16:16, I was wondering if you were going to use that as a proof text for baptismal regeneration/ works salvation.
That seems to be the first verse that is used by people like the poor lady who is on her death bed now with advanced cancer. She seemed hungry for God's Word and used to travel a long distance to my Bible classes. I was unsuccessful about convincing her that the Biblical response to the gospel (1Corinthians 1-4) was to believe/ have faith/ trust the Lord Jesus Christ. Right now I'm grieved about her passing and nobody can witness to her. She's not taking calls or visitors.
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Yes, genuine faith produces or is followed/manifested by loving behavior (Gal. 5:22-23) or good deeds (Eph. 2:8-10),
persevering faith continues from first/conversion to last/death (Rom. 1:17, Matt. 10:22), and such non-meritorious faith
merely receives God's grace/salvation/HS (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13).
persevering faith continues from first/conversion to last/death (Rom. 1:17, Matt. 10:22), and such non-meritorious faith
merely receives God's grace/salvation/HS (Rev. 3:20, 1Cor. 12:13).
You still have not answered my question. Have you placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation or are you also trusting in works for salvation? Now if we don't repent (change our mind) then we won't place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and be saved.
I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may not be until next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."
Now if a person believes unto righteousness, are they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you? Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation.
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word of faith is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may not be until next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."
Now if a person believes unto righteousness, are they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you? Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation.
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word of faith is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.
So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.