Concerning the gift of tongues

[Blain]

So, we accept tongues because other things are also abused, or we look for the truth in all things?

Also, I don't need tongues to buy a loaf of bread.

FWIW, I'm not a strict cessationist as I was originally taught to be. I have some issues in the Text with that position. However, I have been around a lot of abuse of it and am very guarded about its typical open use and supposed proof of the Spirit.

considering you have been around a lot of it being abused it is understandable to be guarded but we mustn't let our experience be the defining facotr either
of course I have mentioned what power I felt when I was exposed to the real thing so I will admit that does kind of make me a hypocrite however I also have been around a lot of false tongues as well so I have seen both sides of the spectrum and I can understand if one doesn't believe in it because of all the fake out there

But there is a lot of fakes with all things in Christianity that doesn't mean there is not the real thing out there

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

So, we accept tongues because other things are also abused, or we look for the truth in all things?

Also, I don't need tongues to buy a loaf of bread.

FWIW, I'm not a strict cessationist as I was originally taught to be. I have some issues in the Text with that position. However, I have been around a lot of abuse of it and am very guarded about its typical open use and supposed proof of the Spirit.

What are all the issues you have in the Text with that position?

I can understand if you're guarded about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have my fair share of witnessing the abuse too. I don't attend churches where there isn't a disciplined and orderly use of the gifts of the Spirit because God is not a God of disorder but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33) and one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control.

I've moved to several different states through my lifetime and right now, I'm part of a church that doesn't allow the exercise of gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I'm fine with that. Not everyone has the gifts of the Spirit and I can still use them on my own to serve God and build myself up or have the Holy Spirit pray for things I have missed praying for with my mind.

I'm glad that you're not a strict cessationist, but I hope you don't try to discourage or hinder other people who do believe in and have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[wolfwint]

It's not my fault you did not know the context of Joel's chapter 2.

Its the question how someone read and interprete the scripture.
I wish to you a happy ressuraction feast!

 

[studier]

considering you have been around a lot of it being abused it is understandable to be guarded but we mustn't let our experience be the defining facotr either

Scripture in Christ in Spirit is my defining factor. People are not trustworthy as defining factors. I am a person.

 

[Blain]

Scripture in Christ in Spirit is my defining factor. People are not trustworthy as defining factors. I am a person.

So what does the scriptures say that makes your defining factor?

 

[studier]

What are all the issues you have in the Text with that position?

I can understand if you're guarded about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have my fair share of witnessing the abuse too. I don't attend churches where there isn't a disciplined and orderly use of the gifts of the Spirit because God is not a God of disorder but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33) and one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control.

I've moved to several different states through my lifetime and right now, I'm part of a church that doesn't allow the exercise of gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I'm fine with that. Not everyone has the gifts of the Spirit and I can still use them on my own to serve God and build myself up or have the Holy Spirit pray for things I have missed praying for with my mind.

I'm glad that you're not a strict cessationist, but I hope you don't try to discourage or hinder other people who do believe in and have the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In a nutshell, and this is from decades ago and I don't keep up on any arguments anymore, some Cessationists hang their hat on "the perfect" in 1Cor13:10 being the completion of the NT Canon of Scripture - so once the Canon was completed tongues ceased (1Cor13:8). I understand this opinion, but I'm not convinced by it. I do think the Canon is closed and that the leading and guiding and teaching of the Spirit of God will align with the Word of God.

I also find some difficulties with the Cessationist arguments pertaining to 1Cor14.

One thing I do think should be considered is how Paul speaks of immaturity vs. maturity in 1Cor13:11-13. What is the need for tongues publicly unless it is to speak a language unknown to the speaker to foreigners in an evangelistic or teaching situation and then in order and to be interpreted as necessary.

I do not believe in the gibberish that is/was extensively being practiced it seems [still?] by such as the "prosperity preachers". I have seen what IMO is extensive abuse in this gibberish stuff. I have been surrounded when I was in S.CA by all kinds of this and with people that would jet off at the drop of a hat to go see and be involved in the latest "move of the Spirit" somewhere in the US where the Spirit was causing "holy laughter" and where supposed Christians were barking like dogs, again as a supposed move of the Spirit. Open the door to abuse and it has little restraining of where people and likely demons will take it.

So, I'm very cautiously open and I'd even caution anybody involved in the personal practice to be evaluating their thinking during and after the practice. The naive and young Christian may not be versed enough to discern and to evaluate what's going on assuming the validity of the practice. I'm personally aware of situations where the control of the tongue was seemingly "taken over" and the thoughts were in the realm of being of sin while it was taking place. If personal experience is to be the guide, then I have to listen to truthful experience no matter positive or negative.

 

[studier]

So what does the scriptures say that makes your defining factor?

See #926.

 

[Blain]

In a nutshell, and this is from decades ago and I don't keep up on any arguments anymore, some Cessationists hang their hat on "the perfect" in 1Cor13:10 being the completion of the NT Canon of Scripture - so once the Canon was completed tongues ceased (1Cor13:8). I understand this opinion, but I'm not convinced by it. I do think the Canon is closed and that the leading and guiding and teaching of the Spirit of God will align with the Word of God.

I also find some difficulties with the Cessationist arguments pertaining to 1Cor14.

One thing I do think should be considered is how Paul speaks of immaturity vs. maturity in 1Cor13:11-13. What is the need for tongues publicly unless it is to speak a language unknown to the speaker to foreigners in an evangelistic or teaching situation and then in order and to be interpreted as necessary.

I do not believe in the gibberish that is/was extensively being practiced it seems [still?] by such as the "prosperity preachers". I have seen what IMO is extensive abuse in this gibberish stuff. I have been surrounded when I was in S.CA by all kinds of this and with people that would jet off at the drop of a hat to go see and be involved in the latest "move of the Spirit" somewhere in the US where the Spirit was causing "holy laughter" and where supposed Christians were barking like dogs, again as a supposed move of the Spirit. Open the door to abuse and it has little restraining of where people and likely demons will take it.

So, I'm very cautiously open and I'd even caution anybody involved in the personal practice to be evaluating their thinking during and after the practice. The naive and young Christian may not be versed enough to discern and to evaluate what's going on assuming the validity of the practice. I'm personally aware of situations where the control of the tongue was seemingly "taken over" and the thoughts were in the realm of being of sin while it was taking place. If personal experience is to be the guide, then I have to listen to truthful experience no matter positive or negative.

I have seen what your talking about it is very disturbing to see so your caution is well warrented and I am glad you at least are a little open even if guarded

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

In a nutshell, and this is from decades ago and I don't keep up on any arguments anymore, some Cessationists hang their hat on "the perfect" in 1Cor13:10 being the completion of the NT Canon of Scripture - so once the Canon was completed tongues ceased (1Cor13:8). I understand this opinion, but I'm not convinced by it. I do think the Canon is closed and that the leading and guiding and teaching of the Spirit of God will align with the Word of God.

I also find some difficulties with the Cessationist arguments pertaining to 1Cor14.

One thing I do think should be considered is how Paul speaks of immaturity vs. maturity in 1Cor13:11-13. What is the need for tongues publicly unless it is to speak a language unknown to the speaker to foreigners in an evangelistic or teaching situation and then in order and to be interpreted as necessary.

I do not believe in the gibberish that is/was extensively being practiced it seems [still?] by such as the "prosperity preachers". I have seen what IMO is extensive abuse in this gibberish stuff. I have been surrounded when I was in S.CA by all kinds of this and with people that would jet off at the drop of a hat to go see and be involved in the latest "move of the Spirit" somewhere in the US where the Spirit was causing "holy laughter" and where supposed Christians were barking like dogs, again as a supposed move of the Spirit. Open the door to abuse and it has little restraining of where people and likely demons will take it.

So, I'm very cautiously open and I'd even caution anybody involved in the personal practice to be evaluating their thinking during and after the practice. The naive and young Christian may not be versed enough to discern and to evaluate what's going on assuming the validity of the practice. I'm personally aware of situations where the control of the tongue was seemingly "taken over" and the thoughts were in the realm of being of sin while it was taking place. If personal experience is to be the guide, then I have to listen to truthful experience no matter positive or negative.

Yeah, unfortunately the prosperity preachers are all about what is "showy" and "spectacular" and the immature tend to be the loudest and most ostentatious speakers of tongues. I do tend to think some of them embellish or overact to make it sound more interesting and spectacular. So I end up feeling super uncomfortable around them and it gets so chaotic that I can't even quietly concentrate on speaking in tongues. This is really the main reason why I avoid those types of churches.

Plus the manifestation like holy laughter, being slain in the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit, acting like an animal, and the other stuff you mentioned are NOT IN THE BIBLE and are not from the Holy Spirit. The moment I see anything like that at a church I'm visiting, I don't even wait for the worship or service to be over. I am OUT OF THERE!

As to the naive and young Christian, I received the gift of speaking n tongues when I was young. I have to say, if a person really does belong to God, they will learn how to use the gifts properly sooner or later and they do get better at it with time and experience, becoming more orderly, and not given over to overacting. So, I'm pretty patient with those who are new or young to it. Also, it never hurts to pray for these younger brothers and sisters in Christ, that they get better at it. And sometimes, you have to find an opportune time to just tell them directly about any improvements and corrections they should consider about it.

Oh and you mentioned about being "taken over' - where people lose control and do weird stuff?? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible so I'm thinking it's not of the Holy Spirit? It has never happened to me. If anyone else who has the gifts know of a verse where a Christian is "taken over" please point that out to me. I've witnessed a person coming to ask for prayer one time at my old church and she was just acting so weird - like she was possessed.... well we all realized she WAS possessed but she was asking to be prayed for. But the pastor was very stern with her and told her that she needed to repent in order to receive healing. It was pretty clear that they had tried to minister to her before but she wasn't letting go of whatever sin she was holding on to that caused her to be possessed by a demon. It was pretty shocking! But I learned something very important that day - that there is a good reason why God wants you to submit to the Holy Spirit at all times - not only for growing more godly in Christ, but submitting to the Holy Spirit keeps you from being possessed by demons.....

 

[studier]

Oh and you mentioned about being "taken over' - where people lose control and do weird stuff?? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible so I'm thinking it's not of the Holy Spirit? It has never happened to me. If anyone else who has the gifts know of a verse where a Christian is "taken over" please point that out to me.

Just a figure of speech. If one is speaking a language not known to him, then it can't be his mind that is speaking 1Cor14:14-19. It's not a lose control and do weird stuff situation I was intending to speak of.

 

[DeanM]

Yeah, unfortunately the prosperity preachers are all about what is "showy" and "spectacular" and the immature tend to be the loudest and most ostentatious speakers of tongues. I do tend to think some of them embellish or overact to make it sound more interesting and spectacular. So I end up feeling super uncomfortable around them and it gets so chaotic that I can't even quietly concentrate on speaking in tongues. This is really the main reason why I avoid those types of churches.

Plus the manifestation like holy laughter, being slain in the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit, acting like an animal, and the other stuff you mentioned are NOT IN THE BIBLE and are not from the Holy Spirit. The moment I see anything like that at a church I'm visiting, I don't even wait for the worship or service to be over. I am OUT OF THERE!

As to the naive and young Christian, I received the gift of speaking n tongues when I was young. I have to say, if a person really does belong to God, they will learn how to use the gifts properly sooner or later and they do get better at it with time and experience, becoming more orderly, and not given over to overacting. So, I'm pretty patient with those who are new or young to it. Also, it never hurts to pray for these younger brothers and sisters in Christ, that they get better at it. And sometimes, you have to find an opportune time to just tell them directly about any improvements and corrections they should consider about it.

Oh and you mentioned about being "taken over' - where people lose control and do weird stuff?? I don't see that anywhere in the Bible so I'm thinking it's not of the Holy Spirit? It has never happened to me. If anyone else who has the gifts know of a verse where a Christian is "taken over" please point that out to me. I've witnessed a person coming to ask for prayer one time at my old church and she was just acting so weird - like she was possessed.... well we all realized she WAS possessed but she was asking to be prayed for. But the pastor was very stern with her and told her that she needed to repent in order to receive healing. It was pretty clear that they had tried to minister to her before but she wasn't letting go of whatever sin she was holding on to that caused her to be possessed by a demon. It was pretty shocking! But I learned something very important that day - that there is a good reason why God wants you to submit to the Holy Spirit at all times - not only for growing more godly in Christ, but submitting to the Holy Spirit keeps you from being possessed by demons.....

I have a tongue talking daughter who is married to a pentecostal preacher and a tongue talking sister who is married to a 50+ year AOG preacher. Ive no dog in this fight other than I dont believe they are lieing. I agree about avoiding tongue talking churches just because I wouldnt know what was real and what wasnt.

 

[studier]

I have a tongue talking daughter who is married to a pentecostal preacher and a tongue talking sister who is married to a 50+ year AOG preacher. Ive no dog in this fight other than I dont believe they are lieing. I agree about avoiding tongue talking churches just because I wouldnt know what was real and what wasnt.

Looking at your photo and reading your posts I can't envision you doing the gibberish stuff. No dog in the fight seems to make sense - one of my first posts to you was acknowledging the wisdom in the beard.

 

[DeanM]

Looking at your photo and reading your posts I can't envision you doing the gibberish stuff. No dog in the fight seems to make sense - one of my first posts to you was acknowledging the wisdom in the beard.

I dont know about being wise lol. I do think ig God wants to give me tongues he will. Here is my beard 2 or so years ago. Wasnt any wiser though.

 

[Blain]

I have a tongue talking daughter who is married to a pentecostal preacher and a tongue talking sister who is married to a 50+ year AOG preacher. Ive no dog in this fight other than I dont believe they are lieing. I agree about avoiding tongue talking churches just because I wouldnt know what was real and what wasnt.

It requires discernment the spirit speaks to the spirit

 

[DeanM]

It requires discernment the spirit speaks to the spirit

My point is if God wants to give it to me He can do it anywhere.

 

[Blain]

My point is if God wants to give it to me He can do it anywhere.

True, if I was ever blessed with the gift he could give it and do it anywhere not just in churches that pracitce it which really seems to be a rare sort as far as legit tongues goes. I want the gift for prayer not for speaking to people

 

[hornetguy]

My point is if God wants to give it to me He can do it anywhere.

And if the Spirit decides to give you tongues, it won't be something you need to "practice, to get better" at. These are spiritual gifts from God.. having to "practice" it immediately means they are false, and completely man made...

 

[TrustandObey]

This discussion about the validity of ongoing claims of speaking in supernatural languages is rather similar to discussions on bigfoot blogs.

You have one side asserting that the creatures exist and are roaming across the world. The other side contends that if true there would be much physical evidence of their existence and no need for debate.

The pro-bigfoot side will maintain that the evidence of bigfoot is "everywhere" and is just being ignored. They will also declare that they do not need to prove that Bigfoot exist and demand that those who doubt the existence of Bigfoot should prove that they do not exist.

If you want to see it yourself. Squatchdetective.com Beware it is just as mind numbing as this discussion.

Did the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit (tongues and such) exist during the 1st Century, certainly.
The Bible plainly states that they did and the world was turned upside down.

Is it a ongoing event today, certainly not.

And those that insist that it is ongoing are bringing ridicule on the cause of Christ.


Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord

There is nothing reasonable about such claims.

 

[Blain]

This discussion about the validity of ongoing claims of speaking in supernatural languages is rather similar to discussions on bigfoot blogs.

You have one side asserting that the creatures exist and are roaming across the world. The other side contends that if true there would be much physical evidence of their existence and no need for debate.

The pro-bigfoot side will maintain that the evidence of bigfoot is "everywhere" and is just being ignored. They will also declare that they do not need to prove that Bigfoot exist and demand that those who doubt the existence of Bigfoot should prove that they do not exist.

If you want to see it yourself. Squatchdetective.com Beware it is just as mind numbing as this discussion.

Did the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit (tongues and such) exist during the 1st Century, certainly.
The Bible plainly states that they did and the world was turned upside down.

Is it a ongoing event today, certainly not.

And those that insist that it is ongoing are bringing ridicule on the cause of Christ.


Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord

There is nothing reasonable about such claims.

And yet you cannot disprove it just make snarky comments, the verse Dino provided clearly shows the gift is still ongoing and you have yet to be able to disprove it just admit that you have nothing to counter it instead of comparing this discussion to bigfoot who does not exist
by all means prove us wrong if you can

 

[Lafftur]

And if the Spirit decides to give you tongues, it won't be something you need to "practice, to get better" at. These are spiritual gifts from God.. having to "practice" it immediately means they are false, and completely man made...

Doesn’t hurt to “stir up” the gift like Paul told Timothy.

When I first got the gift of tongues, it was only one word over and over…. so, I asked for more and then many words and different dialects began to flow…

I remember laughing so hard when an Asian dialect like Chinese started coming out of me…

I thought it sounded so funny, I just laughed and loved how wonderful it feels to have the Holy Spirit speaking and flowing through me… so life-giving!

For me, with the gift of tongues came a deep desire to understand what the Holy Spirit was saying…. I began praying and asking for the gift of interpretation of tongues… but, only once have I experienced interpretation.

Someone was leading worship and began to sing in tongues, my natural ears heard him in tongues but my spiritual ears heard him in English and I was completely in awe at how poetic and eloquent the words were…. amazing.

Now, I just simply go back and forth between speaking in tongues and speaking English for my prayer time…

I encourage everyone to ask for all the gifts and see what the Holy Spirit will do!