Seeking Answers part 2!

[Jeffersonian76]

Hi everyone!

I was going to wait a little longer but I wanted to ask a question that's been on my mind as of late. And, considering I've been researching a lot of this and reviewing all of the great materials everyone has shared with me, figured it was a good time to ask.
Feel free to correct me because I might have my timeline wrong, but as far as I know, Abraham lived around 2000 BC? This may be mentioned in the Bible, but prior to Abraham, how did people go to Heaven? They "waited" right? Until the coming of Christ? A main component of the following I write relates to, wouldn't God have developed a way for ancient peoples to go to Heaven from the get-go?

The reason I ask relates back to how I struggle with believing in the divinity of Jesus (I'm sorry...) And that the Bible is the Word of God. (It does pain me too write that...) The fact that it was written so long after creation, but explains the creation that occurred so long before, is a difficult concept for me too wrap my head around.

If the Bible is the true Word of God, I struggle because wouldn't He have wanted to convey to early civilizations his existence from the start? That's kind of the route issue I have as it relates to my question. If the Earth really is only thousands of years old, wouldn't He have made himself known in the absolute beginning? That way, ancient polytheistic religions such as Mesopotamian and Egyptian, and even Greek wouldn't have "developed". Wouldn't He have wanted to "correct" his creations false beliefs right away? Instead of waiting thousands of years later?

I know the Bible explains and goes back to describe creation, so if one already believes in the Bible, my question is pointless. But for me, someone who does really want to believe, is there any explanation in Scripture that sheds some light on why He would have waited a few thousand years before enlightening people of his existance? (Abraham in particular). And then, after all the sin etc. wait again to send a savior?

Does that makes sense? Another angle to look at my question relates to remote societies even to this day. On islands etc. that have never been introduced to God and/or Christianity (or any religion). Similarly to ancient peoples before He made himself known to Abraham, how are those people today saved? I'd want to believe that He would make himself known to them so they could have a chance to be saved and go to Heaven, just like the Ancient peoples who didn't know of him yet.

My struggle relates to, if God (of the Bible) has always loved all of his creations/people, I'd think he'd have made himself known to them from day one of creation.

I understand my timeline and reasoning may be wrong/flawed so please let me know. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

PS. I've spent a lot of time recently looking into everything and have so many more questions popping up. I know a lot of it comes down to faith, but for whatever reason I just can't seem to grasp that...and it's very disappointing. For myself, at least.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts with me. Trust me...my wife is very appreciative as well. She's never contemplated anything like this before. She literally went from one day being an atheist scientist to the next a born again Christian. I'll admit it...it makes me jealous.

Thanks! Really curious to see what you all think about this. Or, if I'm just simply wrong in my timelines or history etc.

 

[Magenta]

If the Bible is the true Word of God, I struggle because wouldn't He have wanted to convey to early civilizations
his existence from the start? That's kind of the route issue I have as it relates to my question. If the Earth really
is only thousands of years old, wouldn't He have made himself known in the absolute beginning?

He did make Himself known, and was known intimately by Adam and Eve.

Then what happened? They removed God from the throne, and enthroned themselves.

 

[Lynx]

Hi everyone!

I was going to wait a little longer but I wanted to ask a question that's been on my mind as of late. And, considering I've been researching a lot of this and reviewing all of the great materials everyone has shared with me, figured it was a good time to ask.
Feel free to correct me because I might have my timeline wrong, but as far as I know, Abraham lived around 2000 BC? This may be mentioned in the Bible, but prior to Abraham, how did people go to Heaven? They "waited" right? Until the coming of Christ? A main component of the following I write relates to, wouldn't God have developed a way for ancient peoples to go to Heaven from the get-go?

The reason I ask relates back to how I struggle with believing in the divinity of Jesus (I'm sorry...) And that the Bible is the Word of God. (It does pain me too write that...) The fact that it was written so long after creation, but explains the creation that occurred so long before, is a difficult concept for me too wrap my head around.

If the Bible is the true Word of God, I struggle because wouldn't He have wanted to convey to early civilizations his existence from the start? That's kind of the route issue I have as it relates to my question. If the Earth really is only thousands of years old, wouldn't He have made himself known in the absolute beginning? That way, ancient polytheistic religions such as Mesopotamian and Egyptian, and even Greek wouldn't have "developed". Wouldn't He have wanted to "correct" his creations false beliefs right away? Instead of waiting thousands of years later?

I know the Bible explains and goes back to describe creation, so if one already believes in the Bible, my question is pointless. But for me, someone who does really want to believe, is there any explanation in Scripture that sheds some light on why He would have waited a few thousand years before enlightening people of his existance? (Abraham in particular). And then, after all the sin etc. wait again to send a savior?

Does that makes sense? Another angle to look at my question relates to remote societies even to this day. On islands etc. that have never been introduced to God and/or Christianity (or any religion). Similarly to ancient peoples before He made himself known to Abraham, how are those people today saved? I'd want to believe that He would make himself known to them so they could have a chance to be saved and go to Heaven, just like the Ancient peoples who didn't know of him yet.

My struggle relates to, if God (of the Bible) has always loved all of his creations/people, I'd think he'd have made himself known to them from day one of creation.

I understand my timeline and reasoning may be wrong/flawed so please let me know. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

PS. I've spent a lot of time recently looking into everything and have so many more questions popping up. I know a lot of it comes down to faith, but for whatever reason I just can't seem to grasp that...and it's very disappointing. For myself, at least.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts with me. Trust me...my wife is very appreciative as well. She's never contemplated anything like this before. She literally went from one day being an atheist scientist to the next a born again Christian. I'll admit it...it makes me jealous.

Thanks! Really curious to see what you all think about this. Or, if I'm just simply wrong in my timelines or history etc.

They were making sacrifices from Can and Abel's time. So SOMETHING was in place right there at the start. There was no temple or ark of the covenant, but God had something in place for sin atonement.

I'm glad we don't have to do that. Imagine looking an animal in the eye and cutting its throat to save your soul... Every year!

 

[DeanM]

Adam, Eve, Cain and Able, before his murder, talked to God. Seth and Adams daughters I dont know. Word of mouth I would think and as Lynx said they were sacrificeing to God right away.

 

[Magenta]

I'm glad we don't have to do that. Imagine looking an animal in the eye and cutting its throat to save your soul... Every year!

The Temple Sabbath involved both daily and weekly sacrifices. Burnt offerings of a one-year-old lamb were made twice daily, morning
and evening. Additionally, the weekly Sabbath saw a double burnt offering and other specific sacrifices, as detailed in Leviticus.

 

[Gideon300]

Hi everyone!

I was going to wait a little longer but I wanted to ask a question that's been on my mind as of late. And, considering I've been researching a lot of this and reviewing all of the great materials everyone has shared with me, figured it was a good time to ask.
Feel free to correct me because I might have my timeline wrong, but as far as I know, Abraham lived around 2000 BC? This may be mentioned in the Bible, but prior to Abraham, how did people go to Heaven? They "waited" right? Until the coming of Christ? A main component of the following I write relates to, wouldn't God have developed a way for ancient peoples to go to Heaven from the get-go?

The reason I ask relates back to how I struggle with believing in the divinity of Jesus (I'm sorry...) And that the Bible is the Word of God. (It does pain me too write that...) The fact that it was written so long after creation, but explains the creation that occurred so long before, is a difficult concept for me too wrap my head around.

If the Bible is the true Word of God, I struggle because wouldn't He have wanted to convey to early civilizations his existence from the start? That's kind of the route issue I have as it relates to my question. If the Earth really is only thousands of years old, wouldn't He have made himself known in the absolute beginning? That way, ancient polytheistic religions such as Mesopotamian and Egyptian, and even Greek wouldn't have "developed". Wouldn't He have wanted to "correct" his creations false beliefs right away? Instead of waiting thousands of years later?

I know the Bible explains and goes back to describe creation, so if one already believes in the Bible, my question is pointless. But for me, someone who does really want to believe, is there any explanation in Scripture that sheds some light on why He would have waited a few thousand years before enlightening people of his existance? (Abraham in particular). And then, after all the sin etc. wait again to send a savior?

Does that makes sense? Another angle to look at my question relates to remote societies even to this day. On islands etc. that have never been introduced to God and/or Christianity (or any religion). Similarly to ancient peoples before He made himself known to Abraham, how are those people today saved? I'd want to believe that He would make himself known to them so they could have a chance to be saved and go to Heaven, just like the Ancient peoples who didn't know of him yet.

My struggle relates to, if God (of the Bible) has always loved all of his creations/people, I'd think he'd have made himself known to them from day one of creation.

I understand my timeline and reasoning may be wrong/flawed so please let me know. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

PS. I've spent a lot of time recently looking into everything and have so many more questions popping up. I know a lot of it comes down to faith, but for whatever reason I just can't seem to grasp that...and it's very disappointing. For myself, at least.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts with me. Trust me...my wife is very appreciative as well. She's never contemplated anything like this before. She literally went from one day being an atheist scientist to the next a born again Christian. I'll admit it...it makes me jealous.

Thanks! Really curious to see what you all think about this. Or, if I'm just simply wrong in my timelines or history etc.

God works through people. And God did make Himself known from the moment of creation. Many of your questions are answered in the Bible. It's not there in the format of an encyclopaedia, but it's there.

God spoke to Adam and Eve even after they rebelled. He spoke to Cain to rebuke him for killing his brother.

God saved people in ancient times the same way as He does now: by grace, through faith. The Bible tells us that God declares His nature through creation. Who would look at at an aircraft and wonder what kind of accident produced it? Yet men look at each other and believe that we came into being by a completely random process. The problem is not God not speaking. The problem is man not listening.

There are many people throughout history that God has spoken to. Again, the Old Testament is the account of God's dealings with humanity directly, not just through creation.

Decades ago, I had a discussion about the people who never hear the gospel. I could not answer the question. So I went to the Source and asked God. He told me that if anyone seeks Him, God will find a way to save the seeker.

By the way, there is no such thing as blind faith. Unbelief is blind, because it denies the realities of what can be easily observed. Faith is based on fact. The Bible defines faith as that which substantiates things hoped for. I call it spiritual eyesight. As the eye "substantiates" physical things such as colour and shape, so faith substantiates spiritual things. Hope is the object of faith. Just saying, "Have faith" is meaningless. Faith in what? The moon is really made of green cheese? No, faith enables us to believe God. We all have faith, otherwise we would be paralysed. I trust my computer chair completely. Trust is another word for faith. I sit with absolute confidence that it can hold my weight.

There is really only one question that needs to be answered: is Jesus the Saviour who died and rose again to save you. All your other questions can be answered intellectually, but that will only satisfy your curiosity. Lord Jesus is a real person to be trusted, not a phenomenon to be observed.

My suggestion is that you read the gospel of John. It was written expressly that we might believe. Ask God to open your eyes. "I believe, help me with my unbelief" is a start. God will answer the faintest cry. Ask God to give you the ability to hear Him also. Be warned, God will most likely answer. God answered my prayer before I was saved and just 12 years old. I freaked. It was 8 years later that I finally accepted Christ. We may not have 8 years the way the world is going.

 

[Magenta]

He spoke to Cain to rebuke him for killing his brother.

God spoke to Cain before that, also... Genesis 4

Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, while Cain was a tiller of the soil. 3 So in the course of time, Cain brought some of
the fruit of the soil as an offering to the LORD, 4 while Abel brought the best portions of the firstborn of his flock.

And the LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but He had no regard
for Cain and his offering. So Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell.

6 “Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do what is right, will you not
be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.”

8 Then Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And while
they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

9 And the LORD said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I do not know!” he answered. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

 

[Lynx]

The Temple Sabbath involved both daily and weekly sacrifices. Burnt offerings of a one-year-old lamb were made twice daily, morning
and evening. Additionally, the weekly Sabbath saw a double burnt offering and other specific sacrifices, as detailed in Leviticus.

I wasn't talking about those. You didn't have to kill an animal for every single person every day. I was talking about your personal sacrifice to roll your personal sin ahead one year.

 

[Suze]

He did make Himself known, and was known intimately by Adam and Eve.

Then what happened? They removed God from the throne, and enthroned themselves.

Spot on girl ! ❤️

 

[Seeker47]

Wow, lots of "stuff" here. I have a comment or two on your very first question.

God indeed wanted to show himself to all people and he did! The Bible tells us:
"...since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse".

Also, the First Testament, in several places states that those who died in righteousness before Yeshua, went
"To sleep with their ancestors" and to sleep "On the Bosom of Abraham" . Christians believe, based on several Second Testament passages that Yeshua descended to the "place of the dead" (not hell) to redeem those righteous saints who have been waiting patiently there for their final redemption.

Yeshua is the sole redemption or all people, forever.

 

[Jeffersonian76]

He did make Himself known, and was known intimately by Adam and Eve.

Then what happened? They removed God from the throne, and enthroned themselves.

Is that conveyed somehow or somewhere other than in scripture? I know it's irrational to say "we weren' t there so how could we know", and I understand that, but is there any historical info other than the Bible that can corroborate that He made Himself known on day one?

And if so, did He make Himself known to everyone a little later on? Or did He count on Adam and Even (and anyone else from the earliest point in time that knew of Him) to spread His truth?

I apologize if I can easily find his somewhere, I did begin reading the bible and I am going to from beginning to end, something I've never done before. I just habe difficulty if the bible is the sole place where this information van be found.

 

[Magenta]

Is that conveyed somehow or somewhere other than in scripture? I know it's irrational to say "we weren' t there so how could we know", and I understand that, but is there any historical info other than the Bible that can corroborate that He made Himself known on day one?

And if so, did He make Himself known to everyone a little later on? Or did He count on Adam
and Eve (and anyone else from the earliest point in time that knew of Him) to spread His truth?

I apologize if I can easily find this somewhere, I did begin reading the bible and I am going to from beginning to end,
something I've never done before. I just have difficulty if the bible is the sole place where this information van be found.

Well, there are a lot of things in the Bible that have been taken and incorporated into other belief systems, and this is called syncretism and also lends itself to idolatry. The Bible itself as you know has been studied and written about an enormous amount, but what matters for you is the conclusions you come to about not just it as the revealed written Word of God, but what you come to believe about the living Word of God, Who is known as Jesus Christ, and what you believe will likely change over time. For instance, early on in my Christian walk I was aware of the fact that I was not sure whether or not Jesus was God. However, I did not pressure myself about it and more was revealed to me over time to the point where now it would be impossible for me to think otherwise.

Many things written in the Bible are open to interpretation and many things written in the Bible are interpreted a number of different ways, but when speaking of the sin of Adam and Eve, it is clearly only one thing, and that is their disobedience regarding eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. Now some do not acknowledge this, but it seems obvious to me that they already knew good in knowing God, and the fact that they immediately felt shame upon their sinning communicates to me that the evil they came to know was within themselves. Also just the fact that they decided for themselves what seemed the best course of action regardless of the fact that it was the opposite of what God said conveys to me the idea that they put themselves in charge of their lives over what God had said was best for them. And because of what they chose, sin and death entered into equation, which affected not just them, but every single person since then AND all of creation. Still, Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world because God knew what choice they would make.

Genesis 2 verse 17

 

[Jeffersonian76]

They were making sacrifices from Can and Abel's time. So SOMETHING was in place right there at the start. There was no temple or ark of the covenant, but God had something in place for sin atonement.

I'm glad we don't have to do that. Imagine looking an animal in the eye and cutting its throat to save your soul... Every year!

That's fascinating, thanks. Did Cain and Abel ever personally write anything about their experiences? Or is there any archaeological support for happenings way back then outside of the bible?

I know its a silly question and it's required that I trust in scripture, I'm just curious.

Thanks - you've been wonderful as have many others on here. I started reading the bible and will from beginning to end. I've read bits and pieces but haven't read it it on its entirety.

 

[Jeffersonian76]

Well, there are a lot of things in the Bible that have been taken and incorporated into other belief systems, and this is called syncretism and also lends itself to idolatry. The Bible itself as you know has been studied and written about an enormous amount, but what matters for you is the conclusions you come to about not just it as the revealed written Word of God, but what you come to believe about the living Word of God, Who is known as Jesus Christ, and what you believe will likely change over time. For instance, early on in my Christian walk I was aware of the fact that I was not sure whether or not Jesus was God. However, I did not pressure myself about it and more was revealed to me over time to the point where now it would be impossible for me to think otherwise.

Many things written in the Bible are open to interpretation and many things written in the Bible are interpreted a number of different ways, but when speaking of the sin of Adam and Eve, it is clearly only one thing, and that is their disobedience regarding eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. Now some do not acknowledge this, but it seems obvious to me that they already knew good in knowing God, and the fact that they immediately felt shame upon their sinning communicates to me that the evil they came to know was within themselves. Also just the fact that they decided for themselves what seemed the best course of action regardless of the fact that it was the opposite of what God said conveys to me the idea that they put themselves in charge of their lives over what God had said was best for them. And because of what they chose, sin and death entered into equation, which affected not just them, but every single person since then AND all of creation. Still, Jesus was purposed from before the foundation of the world because God knew what choice they would make.

Genesis 2 verse 17

Thanks Magenta! One other question on this, prior to believing, did you look into the Council of Nicaea? I'm just curious if yoy personally ever struggled with the Trinity and had questions about the conclusion drawn there.

Because as you know, I do...

Thanks!

 

[Jeffersonian76]

Adam, Eve, Cain and Able, before his murder, talked to God. Seth and Adams daughters I dont know. Word of mouth I would think and as Lynx said they were sacrificeing to God right away.

Thanks for weighing in, I'mI'm looking a lot more into Cain and Abel now. Really appreciate your response.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks Magenta! One other question on this, prior to believing, did you look into the Council of Nicaea? I'm just
curious if you personally ever struggled with the Trinity and had questions about the conclusion drawn there.

Because as you know, I do...

Thanks!

I do not overly concern myself with things like that. I do however accept the Trinity and understand it
as a way humanity attempts to understand God, Who has revealed Himself to mankind in a great many
ways. Still, the Trinity expresses specific personal ways God has revealed Himself (as there are other ways)
and I have seen it expressed like this:

GOD = the Father of us

Jesus = God as us

Holy Spirit = God in us

Don't try to figure it all out at once....



And you are welcome!

 

[Suze]

Hi everyone!

I was going to wait a little longer but I wanted to ask a question that's been on my mind as of late. And, considering I've been researching a lot of this and reviewing all of the great materials everyone has shared with me, figured it was a good time to ask.
Feel free to correct me because I might have my timeline wrong, but as far as I know, Abraham lived around 2000 BC? This may be mentioned in the Bible, but prior to Abraham, how did people go to Heaven? They "waited" right? Until the coming of Christ? A main component of the following I write relates to, wouldn't God have developed a way for ancient peoples to go to Heaven from the get-go?

The reason I ask relates back to how I struggle with believing in the divinity of Jesus (I'm sorry...) And that the Bible is the Word of God. (It does pain me too write that...) The fact that it was written so long after creation, but explains the creation that occurred so long before, is a difficult concept for me too wrap my head around.

If the Bible is the true Word of God, I struggle because wouldn't He have wanted to convey to early civilizations his existence from the start? That's kind of the route issue I have as it relates to my question. If the Earth really is only thousands of years old, wouldn't He have made himself known in the absolute beginning? That way, ancient polytheistic religions such as Mesopotamian and Egyptian, and even Greek wouldn't have "developed". Wouldn't He have wanted to "correct" his creations false beliefs right away? Instead of waiting thousands of years later?

I know the Bible explains and goes back to describe creation, so if one already believes in the Bible, my question is pointless. But for me, someone who does really want to believe, is there any explanation in Scripture that sheds some light on why He would have waited a few thousand years before enlightening people of his existance? (Abraham in particular). And then, after all the sin etc. wait again to send a savior?

Does that makes sense? Another angle to look at my question relates to remote societies even to this day. On islands etc. that have never been introduced to God and/or Christianity (or any religion). Similarly to ancient peoples before He made himself known to Abraham, how are those people today saved? I'd want to believe that He would make himself known to them so they could have a chance to be saved and go to Heaven, just like the Ancient peoples who didn't know of him yet.

My struggle relates to, if God (of the Bible) has always loved all of his creations/people, I'd think he'd have made himself known to them from day one of creation.

I understand my timeline and reasoning may be wrong/flawed so please let me know. I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

PS. I've spent a lot of time recently looking into everything and have so many more questions popping up. I know a lot of it comes down to faith, but for whatever reason I just can't seem to grasp that...and it's very disappointing. For myself, at least.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your thoughts with me. Trust me...my wife is very appreciative as well. She's never contemplated anything like this before. She literally went from one day being an atheist scientist to the next a born again Christian. I'll admit it...it makes me jealous.

Thanks! Really curious to see what you all think about this. Or, if I'm just simply wrong in my timelines or history etc.

I have read the Bible very many times over the last 30 years and I still struggle with the concept of the trinity , I'm just not convinced of it and I can't find enough evidence in there to convince me . I for sure except that God has given all things into Jesus hands and that Jesus is now a divine being , but I believe that he was human and received the Spirit of God without measure which is how he was able to do all the things that he did and know all the things that he knew when he was here on earth . As far as am aware ( and I may be wrong ) my understanding is that the trinity is a catholic doctrine and that in itself is a turn off for me . I'm happy to admit that I might have it wrong and maybe the trinity is true but , at this time it's not something that I can get my head around . I felt I needed to come clean and state this about myself , if I get banned then so b it . If I don't get banned I can assure everyone that I won't harp on about my beliefs on this subject .

 

[Seeker47]

That's fascinating, thanks. Did Cain and Abel ever personally write anything about their experiences? Or is there any archaeological support for happenings way back then outside of the bible?

I know its a silly question and it's required that I trust in scripture, I'm just curious.

Thanks - you've been wonderful as have many others on here. I started reading the bible and will from beginning to end. I've read bits and pieces but haven't read it it on its entirety.

I have found it fascinating; every ancient archaeological discovery ever made supports the biblical narrative. There are always early nay-sayers to new discoveries but their objections never hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Seeker47]

I have read the Bible very many times over the last 30 years and I still struggle with the concept of the trinity , I'm just not convinced of it and I can't find enough evidence in there to convince me . I for sure except that God has given all things into Jesus hands and that Jesus is now a divine being , but I believe that he was human and received the Spirit of God without measure which is how he was able to do all the things that he did and know all the things that he knew when he was here on earth . As far as am aware ( and I may be wrong ) my understanding is that the trinity is a catholic doctrine and that in itself is a turn off for me . I'm happy to admit that I might have it wrong and maybe the trinity is true but , at this time it's not something that I can get my head around . I felt I needed to come clean and state this about myself , if I get banned then so b it . If I don't get banned I can assure everyone that I won't harp on about my beliefs on this subject .

I share your concerns. If "The Trinity" is ment to be three manifestations of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I can get along with that. (In my study, there are more than three manifestations but I'm not hung up on that issue). I cannot find in all my reading that there are only three manifestations and especially that they are all co-equal.

I'll may join you on both the banned list and in the "No Harp" group.

 

[Jeffersonian76]

I do not overly concern myself with things like that. I do however accept the Trinity and understand it
as a way humanity attempts to understand God, Who has revealed Himself to mankind in a great many
ways. Still, the Trinity expresses specific personal ways God has revealed Himself (as there are other ways)
and I have seen it expressed like this:

GOD = the Father of us

Jesus = God as us

Holy Spirit = God in us

Don't try to figure it all out at once....



And you are welcome!

You're last comment about figuring it all out at once has been my life haha. I think I mentioned it in another post, but my wife finally dragged me to a psychologist and turns out I've had ADHD all my life. I was one of those that didn't believe such a thing was real. And now, I do (for the most part lol). So maybe that's an interesting percursor to this.

And I understand, I was only curious from one person who originally struggled with believing to another if you ever had questions about that meeting before you got to where you are now. But that makes sense.