Loss of salvation???

[GWH]

No offense intended, but the long narrative without Scriptural backup is a bit too much. Could I ask you to give me the readers digest version since your first paragraph seems to say you completely understand how and why I'm wrong?

Yes, what Jimbone's testimony teaches is that some folks must be knocked to their knees by fire and wind before they will trust in God,
whereas mine indicates that some folks are more easily persuaded to believe by the still, small voice (1Kings 19:11-12 :^).

 

[Cameron143]

There is a tradition of interpretation that John MacArthur was known for a few decades ago that resulted in many of his students becoming known as "fruit inspectors" because they were seen to be inspecting professing Christians for the fruits of the Spirit to evaluate whether or not they were true Christians. The ones I encountered were very critical and seemingly high-minded and very critical of any other teaching system.

So, all true Christians will have them as products of Salvation?

So professing Christians who are not enduring [in something] and not obeying [or not enduring in obeying] are not true Christians or just immature because not long term in the Faith yet, or long term under discipline at some phase, or??? I'm leaving out loss of salvation because I don't think you accept this potential.

They aren't perfected qualities, but ever emerging qualities. Also, obedience and endurance aren't fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Genez]

There is a tradition of interpretation that John MacArthur was known for a few decades ago that resulted in many of his students becoming known as "fruit inspectors" because they were seen to be inspecting professing Christians for the fruits of the Spirit to evaluate whether or not they were true Christians. The ones I encountered were very critical and seemingly high-minded and very critical of any other teaching system.

So, all true Christians will have them as products of Salvation?

So professing Christians who are not enduring [in something] and not obeying [or not enduring in obeying] are not true Christians or just immature because not long term in the Faith yet, or long term under discipline at some phase, or??? I'm leaving out loss of salvation because I don't think you accept this potential.

I thank the Lord for using certain people for testing our patience which better develops our endurance..

 

[studier]

They're necessary to fully work out the salvation one has been gifted.

Are they also produced and strengthened as the Christian obeys or lives in conformance to Paul's command to "work out" one's salvation in fear and trembling with God providing capacity to both will and work what pleases God? IOW, is endurance and obedience kind of a circular or a spiraling effect of growth in the abiding relationship with God wherein our will and work steadily increase?

 

[studier]

They aren't perfected qualities, but ever emerging qualities. Also, obedience and endurance aren't fruit of the Spirit.

Then how are they produced and ever emerging if not by the Spirit?

And I still don't understand your thinking about the state or reality of being a real Christian if he does not endure. Many boil this down to loss of salvation or never saved. Your thoughts?

FWIW, IMO you're touching on some important observations re: commands and ultimate realities of true Christians.

 

[Kroogz]

Accept the foundation I just placed in front of you. There is a God and Creator of all, and He requires us to believe in / submit to His resurrected Son Jesus Christ - His Anointed King over everything.

NKJ Luke23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Probably the simplest acknowledgement of belief in / submission to Lord Jesus as King I know of in Scripture. Very much in line with Paul's only foundation = Jesus [is the] Christ. Even the resurrection to life is inferred.

See, this is what the calvies,armies and all religions need to see.

Salvation is equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

The Lord Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again for you! He paid for all your sins......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved.

I WILL go down with the plane and I WILL be a BROTHER to you if I simply trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation.

The calvies and the armies don't get to tell the whole truth of their "gospel."

 

[BillyBob]

So, the command to flee certain detrimental things and the contrasting command to pursue - to move rapidly and decisively toward the objective of endurance - is nothing we need to concern ourselves with because it just describes what we will do completely apart from any effort on our part enabled by the capacities and abilities God gives us to will and work what pleases Him? So, our will and our work are ultimately not important because it's all just describing us?

We have endured only through our faith in Christ. And when we fail to obey, we mourn the fact that we are such weak creatures, but are ever thankful for the work of Christ and the Spirit who are both merciful and full of grace. And we know that when God looks at us, He sees no spot or wrinkle.

 

[sawdust]

Are they also produced and strengthened as the Christian obeys or lives in conformance to Paul's command to "work out" one's salvation in fear and trembling with God providing capacity to both will and work what pleases God? IOW, is endurance and obedience kind of a circular or a spiraling effect of growth in the abiding relationship with God wherein our will and work steadily increase?

2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

We do nothing but rest (trust) in Him, that is our obedience. It is His power that transforms. We get out of His way (die to self) and let Him do His work.

Zechariah 4:6
So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the Lord of hosts.

We work out our salvation by means of grace through faith. The days of working out one's salvation through the keeping of the Law is complete.

 

[Kroogz]

Those verses describe the Christian. They don't enumerate conditions to remain a Christian. In other words, the way you can identify a Christian is that he will endure, abide, etc.

That is most certainly accurate.......BUT, some believers do not advance after salvation. We cannot identify them. We can only see the outward but God sees the inward.

Some believers see discipline to the extent of the "sin unto death." We see them as ," No way are they saved!" But God saw them as children that needed to be taken home.

 

[Magenta]

We do nothing but rest (trust) in Him, that is our obedience. It is His power
that transforms. We get out of His way (die to self) and let Him do His work.

Zechariah 4:6
So he answered and said to me: “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the Lord of hosts.

We work out our salvation by means of grace through faith. The days of
working out one's salvation through the keeping of the Law is complete.

Zechariah 4 verse 6

 

[Kroogz]

The Art of Missing The Point....
By Studier.

It's not missing the point. It's REJECTING the point.

 

[Kroogz]

If I may, the Gospel is #3 below:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Again.......We are going down on a plane. 30 seconds to undeniable death......What must I do to be saved?

 

[Kroogz]

OK, so true Christians do endure and do obey because they are truly saved and truly connected to Christ, correct?

So, endurance and continued obedience are necessary as a result of initial salvation, or optional?

This is the mud between calvies and armies.

Perseverance of the saints and loss/walking away/forfeiting salvation is the SAME.

Calvies~~Not really saved. Why? Because the creature didn't measure up.

Armies~~Lose/walk away/forfeit salvation. Why? Because the creature didn't measure up.

Both rely on the creature.

 

[Cameron143]

Then how are they produced and ever emerging if not by the Spirit?

And I still don't understand your thinking about the state or reality of being a real Christian if he does not endure. Many boil this down to loss of salvation or never saved. Your thoughts?

FWIW, IMO you're touching on some important observations re: commands and ultimate realities of true Christians.

The fruit of the Spirit is enumerated Galatians 5. Neither obedience nor endurance are listed.
Obedience is a desire God places into the hearts of believers as they delight themselves in Him...Psalm 37:4.
When an individual is saved, they become a new creation. They are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are partakers in the divine nature. They hear God's voice and respond.
You seem to believe that God saves an individual without changing them or commit Himself to their success. He, in fact, ensures our success.

I don't believe someone who is genuinely saved can lose their salvation. You are welcome to try to convince me otherwise. But if you choose to do so, I have a few questions:
How is someone unborn from above?
How is someone separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus?
How is Jesus not a liar when He says He will never leave us or forsake us?

 

[Gideon300]

I think some are seeking such and many are relying on their own understanding and what others are teaching which in our day is greatly denominationalized.

No offense intended but I'm passing for now on getting into the remainder of what you're saying. Jumping to conclusions right or wrong is the practice I'd rather get away from.

Any thoughts specifically re: endurance?

Yes. The salvation of the soul requires endurance. Many baulk at the price required. To be born again costs nothing and is instantaneous. The salvation of the soul is progressive and a process that takes a lifetime. Salvation is still God's business. All He asks from us is our willing cooperation. He will do the rest. I've known my wife since 1983. We were married 2-1/2 years ago. She is not the same person that I first met. God has done a wonderful work in her life. She's endured a great deal of trial and tribulation. God is faithful and has the power to do what He's promised. If you want to do an interesting study, look at how often patience and faith are linked. Faith is always tested. We know that faith is real if it endures under trial. Patience is part of the fruit of the Spirit and an aspect of love.

 

[Musicmaster]

sigh in response. I understand you and the teaching about rewards. I came to disagree with that point of view.

Based on...?

MM

 

[Genez]

It's not missing the point. It's REJECTING the point.

Still an art form....
Avoiding the appearance of rejection.
Simply presenting oneself as being dull...

 

[GWH]

Again.......We are going down on a plane. 30 seconds to undeniable death......What must I do to be saved?

The thumbnail version is sufficient: Accept Christ Jesus as Lord.
(Like the thief on the cross.)

Do you accept the elaboration?

 

[Kroogz]

Yes, what Jimbone's testimony teaches is that some folks must be knocked to their knees by fire and wind before they will trust in God,
whereas mine indicates that some folks are more easily persuaded to believe by the still, small voice (1Kings 19:11-12 :^).

AND....They will never perish. They will not, Absolutley will not come into condemnation. Nothing will separate them from the love of Christ. They have the same seal as the Son. They have a FOREVER advocate. They have eternal life. They are seated with Him. They are of an imperishable seed.

So much for trying to convince or scare believers that salvation can be walked away from or lost or forfeited.

Just think, really just think about it. If we could lose salvation for any reason.....We lose all of these Grace gifts and start from SCRATCH.

We wouldn't even know the Name of Jesus. We would start from SCRATCH if we could lose/forfeit salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

The thumbnail version is sufficient: Accept Christ Jesus as Lord.
(Like the thief on the cross.)

Do you accept the elaboration?

Like the calvies, you need to accept that salvation is equal privilege and equal opportunity.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and You shall be saved.

There is not some grading curve for believers.