Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Faithfulness to the faith (endurance) is not what saves.

Although I appreciate everyone's rights to make such statements, they're not meaningful apart from proving comprehensively from Scripture that they're correct.

 

[studier]

I mean thinking that message that the gift of salvation is revocable, there is really no Good News just a state of hoping and insecurity.

Revocable or ultimately rejected? Revocable when omniscience comprehends ultimately rejected? Maybe (surely) no need to revoke because never truly accepted. Maybe both. Let's see you work it out comprehensively with Scripture.

Insecurity in self, sure, but insecurity in God who can build in us both to will and work as pleases Him. But we don't have to pay attention or be in submission lasting to Him? Is this what you want to tell prople?

 

[studier]

..and yet they can't even draw a simple graph showing what is above and what is below as to the line that defines salvation or its alleged loss.

So true, so true.

The graph seems silly, but I get the point of where are the determining factors God may determine by. It seems some of those are in some of the Scriptures being proposed.

 

[studier]

What many fail to consider in relation to God's sovereignty is that there are still limitations to His soveignty. In other words, even God has limits. Calvinists push their definition of God's sovereignty into the arena of a tyrant when they claim God intentionally makes many to populate Hell. They defend that trash on the very basis of their warped understanding of God's sovereignty, as if sovereignty justifies injustice.

As to salvation, the works based salvationists will try to throw in "obedience" as a mask to try and cover the works-based nature of their beliefs about salvation, therefore trying to escape what you called the "alone" factor in the saving power of God. In other words, their claim is that the Lord saves us after we obediently get water baptized for remission of sins. This is their failure in rightly dividing the word of truth.

MM

I'm likely with you on most to all points TULIP as their proponents define and explain them with Scripture.

As I understand you and those that correlate obedience to works, we're in disagreement. As I read the Text there is no genuine Faith apart from obedience. The works as a Christian come subsequent to initial Faith into Jesus being Messiah / obedience to God's command to believe.

 

[Genez]

Sure you do... It's very evident.

It requires correcting.. With an answer... With truth.

Not just attempts at obstruction by bringing up details that only sidetracks away from truth.

 

[studier]

Amen regarding your first paragraph!

Regarding the second, I doubt anyone intends to imply obedience earns salvation,
but I admit that until discussing on CC last month I had not clearly stated the faith-basis of obedience
as I do now: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion
and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17),
but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains
non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Will you provide an elaborated explanation of "faith-basis of obedience"?

When we first believe Jesus is the Christ (and understand what this means), are we at the same time obedient to God? If there's no difference qualitatively and only quantitatively, then it seems faith and obedience have to be inextricably joined at conversion and thereafter.

But "faith-basis of obedience" seems ambiguous.

 

[studier]

1. • 
     HEB 12:5
     And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you

This looks like part of a post.

It's a good section to discuss a point about endurance. I assume this was the point you were getting to.

 

[Genez]

I'm likely with you on most to all points TULIP as their proponents define and explain them with Scripture.

As I understand you and those that correlate obedience to works, we're in disagreement. As I read the Text there is no genuine Faith apart from obedience. The works as a Christian come subsequent to initial Faith into Jesus being Messiah / obedience to God's command to believe.

But without faith, it is impossible to please him. For the person who comes to God ​

must believe that God is, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6​

​

So then, faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God. Romans 10:17​

You see obedience anywhere there?

Faith should require obedience when your faith is being tested into initiating action for a given situation.
But obedience was not required to simply enter into eternal salvation.

Abraham was not saved because he offered Isaac by faith. (obedience)
For, Abraham was already saved. (believed)

 

[Genez]

Will you provide an elaborated explanation of "faith-basis of obedience"?

When we first believe Jesus is the Christ (and understand what this means), are we at the same time obedient to God? If there's no difference qualitatively and only quantitatively, then it seems faith and obedience have to be inextricably joined at conversion and thereafter.

But "faith-basis of obedience" seems ambiguous.

I was not being obedient when I believed.
I was walking down the main corridor on campus while I was reading a tract someone had handed to me.

As a Jewish college student?
I simply found myself WANTING to believe.
Desiring to believe.

No obedience on my part.
I just wanted to!

 

[studier]

You see obedience anywhere there?

Yes, I do, especially in Rom10:17 which immediately follows Rom10:16 where Paul uses belief and obedience in parallel - meaning essentially interchangeably - obeying the Gospel is essentially the same as believing the thing heard (the report/news - the Gospel).

In Heb11 we're reading of Faith going back to the Garden with examples of obedience and works related to that Faith. And in Heb3 the writer has established the direct correlation between faith and obedience similar to how Paul speaks in Rom10.

Once we understand what Faith is and includes, we're not going to read Faith Alone in the same way some do with an essentially naked simplistic concept of faith. This in part is the theological retort of Faith is Never Alone.

 

[studier]

I was not being obedient when I believed.
I was walking down the main corridor on campus while I was reading a tract someone had handed to me.

As a Jewish college student?
I simply found myself WANTING to believe.
Desiring to believe.

No obedience on my part.
I just wanted to!

Sure, you can think this and it's probably the concept of reality most of us experience. But the Biblical fact is that God long ago commanded men to believe in His Son, so whether or not you knew it your decision to believe was also [unkowingly] obedience to God's command to believe.

Also, going back into any OC concepts of genuine Faith, where do we get the idea that it was ever separate from obedience to God? Paul the Jew and the writer of Hebrews (maybe or probably a Jew) both made certain the Faith and obedience parallelism was identified. So did Jesus the ultimate Jew (to say the least). Does, 'I believe You're God, but don't tell me what to do' make any sense to anyone who understands who and what God is?

 

[Gideon300]

There are many Scriptures in the NC Writings that speak of endurance just using the one word sometimes translated as "endurance". This "sometimes" is part of the problem when it comes to grasping how much endurance is discussed.

To begin, I'd point out that "abiding" as is commanded by our Lord for example in John15:4 is the word "menō" which means to remain, stay, persist, last (i.e. lasting), continue.

Then, "endure" is the word "hupomenō" which is the same word "menō" combined with a preposition ("hupo"). In Greek when a preposition is prefixed to a word, it typically intensifies the meaning of the word in some way. So, to remain becomes to endure. Lexically (BDAG Lexicon) hupomenō means:

1. to stay in a place beyond an expected point of time, remain/stay (behind), while others go away​

2. to maintain a belief or course of action in the face of opposition, stand one’s ground, hold out, endure (Il. et al.; remain instead of fleeing:​

3. to wait for with persistence, wait for τινὰ someone​

​

So, we can see the similarities and overlap with "menō" but we can see a nuanced difference, mainly in dealing with the factor of opposition.​

​

With this in mind, look again at NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Granted, as I've agreed before, there is context to this. But my other statement was that after studying endurance, I came back here and reasoned that our Lord and Savior was very likely laying down a principle that endurance was necessary for salvation.​

​

This is the first occurrence of endurance (hupomenō in verbal form - actually a substantival participle here) in the NC Text and it's clearly related to salvation setting aside for the moment the context of "salvation".​

​

Here's the last time hupomenō (in noun form - hupomonē) is used in the NC Text (I'm going to have to change the translation to maintain consistency): NKJ Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience endurance of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

• The saints are God's Holy Ones and they are described or defined as those who keep/guard God's commandments and/namely the Faith [of] Jesus Christ.
  • There are some things to discuss here re: "and/namely" and [of] which I'll leave out for now so we can remain on point.
• Look before and after Rev14:12 in context and we see in Rev14:11 those who take the mark and "bow in obeisance" (translated "worship") to the beast vs. Rev14:12 God's Holy Ones who keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ
  • The endurance of God's Holy Ones in context is their keeping/guarding... Rev14:12 and combined with Rev14:13 and on through the end of the chapter, their dying "in [the] Lord from now on". So they keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ even unto death.
    • Our NC Text speaks of the endurance of Jesus Christ. Consider how we are commanded to endure unto death as He did.

Some observations so far:

• Please note the consistency between Matt10:22 and Rev14:12 - endure to the end and be saved.
  • Please note the consistency with the Lexical definition of hupomenō re: enduring in the face of opposition.
• Please note the phrase "in [the] Lord in Rev14:13 and know it is what Jesus commands in John15:4 "abide/menō in Me" - so we're seeing both the "menō" and "hupomenō" concepts here in Rev14:12-13. And thus, we're seeing the relationship of how these 2 words are used.
• Please note how I've translated "worship" in Rev14:11. The word is "proskuneō" and it means to "bow in obeisance". It's a word that speaks of reverent submission. It's the same word Jesus used 8x in 4 verses in John4:21-24 which is extreme emphasis as He's explaining who God is looking for - men who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (vs. in Rev14:11 bowing in obeisance to the beast). So, we're seeing endurance in reverent submission to God.

So, I ask myself re: the necessity of endurance:

• Does God ever make allowance for men who will break allegiance to Him and bow to His enemy(ies)?
  • Did He allow this without penalty in the Garden or did He issue a horrendous judgment for it?

This is not a doctrine that comes from looking at just a few verses. The noun form (hupomonē) is used 32x in the NC Text. The verbal forms are used another 17x.

Paul commanded the pursuit of endurance here (and elsewhere): NET 1 Timothy 6:11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.

If the endurance of God's Holy Ones is to keep God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ and not bow to God's enemies even unto death as may be required of them, then what is it for a Christian to not pursue endurance as God / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ commands of the Christian?

Please try to zero out the teaching of various traditions and just consider the Text. We can always revert back to the tradition(s) if that's where we find comfort. I for one find comfort and rest only in Christ in His Word of Truth. Whenever I had checks in my spirit that I was being taught something inaccurate, I sooner or later moved on. To each his own...

​

I wonder when Christians will seek the whole council of God instead of relying on their own understanding.

There is a distinction in God's word between being born again and what many call salvation. Being born again is God's doing. He includes us in Christ and causes us to be new creations. It is instantaneous and irrevocable. Eternal life is just that, eternal. Following on from that is something known as the salvation of the soul. Some erroneously call it progressive sanctification. Peter calls it the goal of our faith and James tells us it is through God's word.

Use the word "deliver" instead of "save" and you will get a better idea of the meaning. Once we are born again, God sets about delivering us from the bondages that we have in the soul. No one can know the salvation of the soul until they are born again. It is sadly possible for the born again to know little of the salvation of the soul subsequently. The degree of our deliverance depends on our consecration and cooperation with the work of the Holy Spirit through God's word.

If you are waiting to get to heaven some day, forget it. If you are not in heaven now, you never will be. Read Ephesians if you disagree.

 

[studier]

I wonder when Christians will seek the whole council of God instead of relying on their own understanding.

I think some are seeking such and many are relying on their own understanding and what others are teaching which in our day is greatly denominationalized.

No offense intended but I'm passing for now on getting into the remainder of what you're saying. Jumping to conclusions right or wrong is the practice I'd rather get away from.

Any thoughts specifically re: endurance?

 

[Genez]

Yes, I do, especially in Rom10:17 which immediately follows Rom10:16 where Paul uses belief and obedience in parallel - meaning essentially interchangeably - obeying the Gospel is essentially the same as believing the thing heard (the report/news - the Gospel).

In Heb11 we're reading of Faith going back to the Garden with examples of obedience and works related to that Faith. And in Heb3 the writer has established the direct correlation between faith and obedience similar to how Paul speaks in Rom10.

Once we understand what Faith is and includes, we're not going to read Faith Alone in the same way some do with an essentially naked simplistic concept of faith. This in part is the theological retort of Faith is Never Alone.

How do you obey the Gospel?

While Peter was yet speaking? Gentiles before him were already speaking in tongues!
Peter was only telling them about Christ! Not commanding them to believe!

 

[GWH]

Will you provide an elaborated explanation of "faith-basis of obedience"?

When we first believe Jesus is the Christ (and understand what this means), are we at the same time obedient to God? If there's no difference qualitatively and only quantitatively, then it seems faith and obedience have to be inextricably joined at conversion and thereafter.

But "faith-basis of obedience" seems ambiguous.

Yes, John 6:29 makes faith the first or primary work = joining them at conversion,
and Eph.2:8-10 makes other works (aka loving fruit) thereafter = keeping them joined (aka perseverance) during sanctification.
Thus, faith (not meritorious works) is the basis of obedience/fellowship = walking with God (Rom 1:17).

 

[Jimbone]

Here's the thing about this question of "can we lose salvation", the simple fact is that if we can lose it then that makes it 100% dependent on us, on our behavior to obtain. Why some can't grasp this simple concept I just don't know, and there's no way around it. If being born-again is just a test to see if we can obey well enough to earn salvation, then it's all works based and those who make it do so by their power and not Gods, therefore they can boast.

The problem you they seem to have, at least to me, is that they do not seem to consider His power and its effect on us when we are born again at all. Almost as if you don't know the power of His Spirit. Yes, when we are saved, we obey, no doubt, but only because He has empowered us to do so, this is why He gets all glory for anything we do in His name and for His glory. I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I do any of the things I do for the kingdom, is because He changed my heart, and I now desire to serve Him. The REAL difference in this debate is who gets the credit and glory for the things we do when saved, one side points to God and says, "ALL glory to God", the other side hates hearing this and believes it's their power that has to carry them through.

I will say it like this, you can only hold one of these views after the Creator of everything has opened your eyes to the truth and reconciled your spirit to Himself. ALL glory to King Jesus!!!!

 

[GWH]

Here's the thing about this question of "can we lose salvation", the simple fact is that if we can lose it then that makes it 100% dependent on us, on our behavior to obtain. Why some can't grasp this simple concept I just don't know, and there's no way around it. If being born-again is just a test to see if we can obey well enough to earn salvation, then it's all works based and those who make it do so by their power and not Gods, therefore they can boast.

The problem you they seem to have, at least to me, is that they do not seem to consider His power and its effect on us when we are born again at all. Almost as if you don't know the power of His Spirit. Yes, when we are saved, we obey, no doubt, but only because He has empowered us to do so, this is why He gets all glory for anything we do in His name and for His glory. I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I do any of the things I do for the kingdom, is because He changed my heart, and I now desire to serve Him. The REAL difference in this debate is who gets the credit and glory for the things we do when saved, one side points to God and says, "ALL glory to God", the other side hates hearing this and believes it's their power that has to carry them through.

I will say it like this, you can only hold one of these views after the Creator of everything has opened your eyes to the truth and reconciled your spirit to Himself. ALL glory to King Jesus!!!!

Not sure whether your post was meant for me, but because it followed mine, I want to ask whether I am included in "they" IYO,
even after what I just posted to studier?

 

[studier]

How do you obey the Gospel?

Good question. We believe the Gospel. When God sends Good News, He requires it be heard, believed and obeyed. He sent Good News re: His Son and He sent His Son, so believe and obey the Good News - submit to Him and thus to His Son.

It may not be how we think or talk but it is the way God thinks and speaks in His Text.

NKJ Rom10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (the second clause explains and elaborate on the first clause - so obeyed parallels believed)​

​

NKJ 2Thess1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

NKJ 1Pet4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?​

​

NKJ Heb5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,​

​

So, we believe the Gospel and we obey the Gospel - we believe in Jesus Christ and we obey Jesus Christ. These are not separate concepts but parallel.​

​

Rom10:16-17 and Heb3 at minimum show us the parallelism between faith and obedience.​

​

Also, since 1John3:23 commands men to believe in the name of Jesus Christ, then how does one believe without also being obedient? This command is not just in 1John3:23.​

​

As I just said to another, I'm going to do what I can to remain on topic, which is re: endurance.

 

[Genez]

Good question. We believe the Gospel. When God sends Good News, He requires it be heard, believed and obeyed. He sent Good News re: His Son and He sent His Son, so believe and obey the Good News - submit to Him and thus to His Son.

It may not be how we think or talk but it is the way God thinks and speaks in His Text.

NKJ Rom10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (the second clause explains and elaborate on the first clause - so obeyed parallels believed)​

​

NKJ 2Thess1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

NKJ 1Pet4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?​

​

NKJ Heb5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,​

​

So, we believe the Gospel and we obey the Gospel - we believe in Jesus Christ and we obey Jesus Christ. These are not separate concepts but parallel.​

​

Rom10:16-17 and Heb3 at minimum show us the parallelism between faith and obedience.​

​

Also, since 1John3:23 commands men to believe in the name of Jesus Christ, then how does one believe without also being obedient? This command is not just in 1John3:23.​

​

As I just said to another, I'm going to do what I can to remain on topic, which is re: endurance.

Is a child in a high chair who takes food off the spoon being obedient? No!

Now? If the child is refusing to eat, and must be told to eat?
Then it becomes a matter of obedience, for that which should not require obedience.

Jews who were resisting and rebelling, had to (at that point) be told to believe.

 

[Musicmaster]

I'm likely with you on most to all points TULIP as their proponents define and explain them with Scripture.

As I understand you and those that correlate obedience to works, we're in disagreement. As I read the Text there is no genuine Faith apart from obedience. The works as a Christian come subsequent to initial Faith into Jesus being Messiah / obedience to God's command to believe.

(sigh) I was only speaking that in relation to salvation. Water baptism is a work that we do not have to accomplish for our salvation, with some out there claiming that it is a matter of obedience even though Paul never stated it as a requirement under the Gospel of Grace.

That is what I was saying. If one wants rewards, then there is indeed obedience to the instruction for spiritual living in good works, but only for reward, not salvational maintenance or retention.

MM