The need to eat still existed for the Hebrews who entered the promised land but the manna still ceased to fall.
Concerning the gift of tongues
- Thread starter Blain
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The reasoning for him to bring up Church history would be valid. Why? Because there is false interpretation that is spreading the lie that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today and that the gifts ceased with the last Apostle.
There is "false interpretation" of just about every subject in the Bible.
The word of God is enough.
Do you think that something in "church history" will not also be debated?
I agree with you. I don't like that they believe that it is a sign of someone being saved. That is nowhere in the Bible. The Bible actually says that not everybody who gets saved will be able to speak in tongues, which is perfectly fine.
Not all Pentecostal groups believe that--I don't know how many do? But even treating fellow Christians as "2nd class citizens" for not speaking in tongues is an "evil" of sorts.
Of course, there are those dispensationalists who dismiss all spiritual gifts and relegate them to the age of the Apostles. They may rightly be criticized, I should think?
What the Scriptures say is that to pray with understanding is superior to praying in tongues, to speak and communicate with others is superior to speaking in a language nobody else understands--unless there is an interpretation.
If we don't see spiritual gifts manifested I think it is wrong to try to conjure them up. There are times when I think God wishes to be silent--for example, when faith is lacking less healing may be expected. Jesus did not heal many in his home town of Nazareth because many there doubted who he was--basically, rejecting him.
What we, who are sincere, need to learn to do is operate in our communication in alignment with a true perception of divine truth and revelation. We may make mistakes, but part of our spiritual growth is to learn to listen to divine counsel on the inside.
And so, we speak, at times, with divine revelation to offer comfort to some, encouragement to others, and correction for those who need it in the proper spirit of edification and love.
I visited a few Pentecostal churches like that. It's awful because it puts unnecessary pressure on people who just want to be saved and distracts them from learning the essential basics of living for and following Jesus.
I've seen that gift abused as well - Christians showing it off and speaking it loudly for other Christians to see, meanwhile no interpretation coming forth from them either. It's so eye-rolling....
For the people abusing that gift, it also gives them a false sense of being "special" in the eyes of God - for such people ironically, I see less or no motivation to grow to maturity in Christ.
I do have to point out though that most Christians who have the gift don't abuse or show off that gift and they are strong, humble Christians
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As for people who don't believe in it, I really don't understand their unnatural hostility toward it. It's the only gift of the Holy Spirit that receives that kind of treatment. You don't see any hostility to gifts of knowledge, prophecy, etc.
So it gives me the impression that there is actually something very powerful about it even though it is one of the lesser gifts and may have to do with how it builds up the church (with interpretation) and the individual Christian (in praying to God privately).
I don't have any real criticism for the mockers, because if you think about it, they are missing out on all the blessings this gift gives because they reject it so vehemently. Plus the fact that they are trying to discourage Christians from receiving it when it is something the Holy Spirit wants to give, they will face certain discipline or punishment from God Himself. I just wouldn't want to be around them when that happens.
Well, it can encourage or discourage.
My point is that those who were raised by Christian parents have always believed God's Gospel or been close to God,
so it would take a miraculous experience to make them repent of saving faith and commit apostasy.
Also, some folks are impressed by wind and fire, while others are more contemplative and swayed by the still small voice.
Finally, the HS's baptism and filling are manifested by loving fruit rather than by gibberish/glossalalia per the doctrinal parts of GW
(which does NOT include the problematic Mark.16:9-20).
Well, acording the statement of fundamental truth of the assembly of God, which was foundet in 1914, and have now around 55 million members,
And this I see in questioning. When ever I met pentecostal ore charismatic people they tell me I miss an important thing in my life as Christian. The baptism with the Holy Spirit and the gift of speaking in tongues. I should search this. For to be nearer to God. And expierience a powerful life. And they always feel let me that I am 2nd class Christian.
No oneness, no love!
No, the TOP indicate the following:
TOP #105: Christians serve the Lord using various gifts for the common good, and all are important. [1CR 12:1-14:40] These gifts may include wisdom, healing and speaking various languages (12:8-10).
TOP #106: Christians are baptized by one Spirit into one body of Christ. [1CR 12:13] Spirit baptism occurs at the moment of repentance/conversion/saving faith in Jesus as Lord, uniting them with His church (COL 1:18), because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9) The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at this point a person is cooperating fully with God.
Confusion may arise because in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. Any confusion is resolved by understanding that baptism with water is a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS.
TOP #107: The most excellent way of serving God is by manifesting multifaceted love. [1CR12:31-14:1, 16:14] This is called the fruit of the Spirit in GL 5:22-23 (TOP #138). Love will remain after tongues cease and new knowledge (the NT?) is canonized.
TOP #108: The gift of prophecy/preaching is better than speaking in unintelligible words. [1CR 14:1-33] By saying that five intelligible words are preferable to 10,000 words in glossalalia (14: 19), Paul seems to be hinting that the latter practice is problematic and should cease, but he does not want to offend anyone (cf. 8:11-13).
Yes, that false doctrine is the discouragement I mentioned to Blain.
I was most encouraged by the agreement of charismatics Larry Tomcak and C.J. Maheny (not sure of spelling)
in Maryland circa 1980 that the fruit of love rather than tongues manifested Spirit baptism and filling.
And I was most favorably impressed when they shut down their para-church ministry/meetings
because they learned that too many folks were attending those rallies instead of their local churches.
Logically, we must believe GW is sufficient for salvation or else life is a farce,
but it does not clarify some secondary doctrines, hence the debates on CC.
You act like we can only have one or the other, but in reality you can have BOTH multifaceted love, the more superior gifts of prophecy/knowledge AND speak in tongues.
The Bible is clear that the perfect hasn't come yet - it will when Jesus returns, NOT when the Bible was canonized. So this gift is still in operation!
I just think that even though it is one of the lesser gifts that there has to be something more to it seeing people react so unnaturally hostile to it. There is power in praying by the Holy Spirit to God that only He understands.....
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
I know of many accounts of speaking in tongues helping people in prayer - sometimes they don't know what to pray for or about and end up praying in tongues to God. Then they see positive things happen that they hadn't thought to pray for! So I think speaking in tongues is the Holy Spirit helping us to pray for things we didn't know we or the church needed.
So for anyone interested in speaking in tongues, it is still in operation. You can have this gift along with the more superior gifts. You can have BOTH!
You act like we can only have one or the other, but in reality you can have BOTH multifaceted love, the more superior gifts of prophecy/knowledge AND speak in tongues.
The Bible is clear that the perfect hasn't come yet - it will when Jesus returns, NOT when the Bible was canonized. So this gift is still in operation!
I just think that even though it is one of the lesser gifts that there has to be something more to it seeing people react so unnaturally hostile to it. There is power in praying by the Holy Spirit to God that only He understands.....
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
I know of many accounts of speaking in tongues helping people in prayer - sometimes they don't know what to pray for or about and end up praying in tongues to God. Then they see positive things happen that they hadn't thought to pray for! So I think speaking in tongues is the Holy Spirit helping us to pray for things we didn't know we or the church needed.
So for anyone interested in speaking in tongues, it is still in operation. You can have this gift along with the more superior gifts. You can have BOTH!
I understand you believe speaking in tongues is still in operation, although it is inferior to the more superior gifts
such as speaking in plain language, and that you believe it helps with prayer.
I doubt it is still operative or helps with prayer, but I am willing to agree to disagree about this secondary issue as long as we agree about God's requirement for salvation, which can be stated as follows:
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Oh okay. I understand. Not every Christian can speak in tongues - I hope you don't think you have to have it. All that you outline is what I believe too!
PTL!
Jesus and Paul hope everyone on CC desires spiritual unity,
(which is one reason I offer to put everyone's harmonized views on OUR website :^)
Everything you wrote the Mormons would amen to.
I live very close to a Mormon Student Center and they proclaim Jesus as Lord. Both verbally and on their outdoor sign.
The verse is theology but cannot be used as doctrine.
If so the verse would imply the verbal statement of "Jesus is Lord" is proof of salvation.
So what? Anybody can say anything they want, but it does not mean they believe it in their heart.
Somehow that seems a difficult thing for some to grasp.