Understanding God’s election
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Of course it does! Are you going to tell us that you love some child that you never met, never knew who lives 10,000 miles away from you in the same exact way that you love your own child? You might tell us that, but I would never believe that. Why? Because you have an actual relationship with your own that you don't have and can't have with some child who lives on the other side of the world from you.
Or let me ask you this: I take it that you're married? That you love your wife? Assuming all this is the case, then are you going to tell us that you love other women in same way that you love your wife?
God loves by choice to...but he doesn't love what or who is evil. God loves his elect only because of the elect's Federal Head. ALL things are from God through him and to him. All the love that God has for his chosen people comes through Christ. God loved Jesus because He remained true and faithful to the Father -- he loved and obeyed his Father perfectly at all times and under all circumstances. And this great truth should stir our hearts to supremely love above all things our Representative, our Mediator, our High Priest.
And you love each and every single person in the world that you don't know or ever will know in the same exact way that you love your own? What about the overtly wicked enemies of God? Do you have the attitude of David? Or do you think David was way behind the times and he never caught up to the NT scriptures?
Ps 26:5
5 I abhor the assembly of evildoers
and refuse to sit with the wicked.
NIV
Ps 139:21-22
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
NIV
Sadly, far too many today do not see that hatred can be a virtue -- just like jealousy can be a virtue! David obviously shared God's holy sentiments about the wicked! I've said this previously and I'll say it again: I take great delight in the knowledge that God CANNOT love (at minimum in the covenantal sense) whatever or whoever is evil! God can never go rogue on me! Evil is the absence of everything God IS. This is precisely why there are so many explicit passages in scripture that teach that God's love is indeed conditional in nature; for he can only love in the covenantal sense those who love him and obey him...IOW...DO GOODERS, as opposed to evildoers.
So...get to work. Find me one verse in the bible that explicitly says that God loves sinners, the wicked, the depraved, reprobates, fools, etc.
I reflect God's love to you and everyone, although imperfectly, just as we all should.
I hate my own sins as well as yours and everyone's, just as God does, because such hatred is indeed a virtue.
A verse that says God loves sinners and his enemies is Rom5:6-10.
I've already explained that love can be unconditional whatever its expression if the motivation comes solely from within the one who is doing the loving. You can accept that or not. If I choose to love my children intimately and love another child by sending money through a missionary, the manner of the demonstration of my love doesn't affect the motivation for my love.
Hah...but did God predestinate his elect in eternity or in temporal reality? Election doesn't take place in space and time. It occurs before the beginning of time. Of course, we were all proud, card-carrying vile sinners here on earth prior to hearing the Gospel. Did Jesus come to save the righteous or filthy,k vile sinners? But our eternal destiny wasn't determined here in temporal reality; it was determined before we were born.
And while on the subject of eternity -- If God right here and now loves and has always loved from eternity each and every person in the identical way in this world w/o exception, regardless of their spiritual condition, then wouldn't such love carry over to the New Order -- to the eternal, visible kingdom that is to come? Wouldn't God at the end of this age love for all eternity all souls who are in the Lake of Fire? To be consistent with your Santa Claus theology, you would have to answer with a resounding, "YES"! In fact, since GOD IS LOVE, God would also have to love all fallen angels as well. But what does the bible say on this matter?
Dan 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
NIV
I don't see any love for the wicked here. But I do see the BIBLE as being internally consistent! The wicked will be held to eternal contempt because God never KNEW them --in eternity!
And for your further info, we learn from God's Word that his saints will share God's HOLY sentiments perfectly in the next age to wit:
Isa 66:22-24
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
NIV
Wow! Whatever happened to the second greatest commandment that says we must love our neighbor as we love ourselves? I guess that command won't apply to the "neighbors" who reside away from the saints in that Lake of Fire. I don't see any love for the wicked in this passage either.
This is why I LOVE God's truth so much -- because He's consistent. There is no lie or falsehood or darkness in Him.
Well then...you can do something God apparently cannot do. Did the Father love Jesus based on motivation that came strictly from within Himself?
And you ducked my question about marriage. Do you love all women the same way you love your wife?
And you're missing the real issue here: The real issue is the QUALITY OF THE LOVE, which I unpacked a little bit in my 11,515. For example, the love spoken of in Rom 8:31-39. Or do you, too, think that the love spoken of in this passage is nothing more than God's commonly displayed benevolence that moves him to sustain mankind with temporal blessings so that they can continue to inhabit the earth (Mat 5:45)?
And one final thing: If God's love is unconditional, as you believe, then why would he have to send Jesus into the world to atone for sin? Since God loves each and every person the same way, regardless of spiritual condition, then why didn't he just forgive sinners and accept all sinners in this world just as they are?
Yes I love my wife differently. But again, it's not about the kind of love exercised, but the motivation.
Thanks for sharing.
Except that He twisted the truth of Christianity to fit him, such as the position that God has no son, similar to another distorted position in some sects that consider Jesus God's son, but not, exactly, divine.
True. He had to twist both doctrines a bit. Otherwise full on word for word copy would have exposed his scheme. And likely got him killed.
Interestingly, there are those who follow Christ in Christian sects that claim Jesus wasn't divine. Instead he was a mere mortal bestowed with God's gifts.
From the beginning and indeed the purpose of creation was predestined by God to save or elect all sinners who repented, sought salvation and became spiritually one with Christ via His grace through faith.
The Bible says that God loves and wants to save all sinners, but some foolishly resist His will and serve Satan, so they will reap just consequences in hell before being destroyed. If Satan is the most evil, then God will love him the longest before destroying his soul.
This is how love for the wicked is consistent or jibes with hell or just punishment of sins.
It's all about the kind of love. Let's take a hypothetical: Your wife and another woman (someone you don't know) are being held hostage, and the perps tell you that they'll spare the woman of your choice if you lay down your life for her. Which of the two women would you choose?
I'm disappointed that you didn't answer two of my questions, however. (Maybe a second time will be a charm?) Since you think that God loves all unconditionally, did he also love Jesus unconditionally?
And secondly, if God loves everyone unconditionally and equally with the same kind of love, regardless of their spiritual condition, then why didn't He simply forgive all mankind, just as we all are, out of his deep love for us instead of sending Jesus into the world to make atonement for sins?
Quote me chapter and verse that says that God foresaw sinners' repentance and faith and as a REACTION or RESPONSE to that acquired knowledge by an omniscient God, God ratified sinners' election of him first by electing them in return.
I have no idea what you just said about Satan. God will love the Evil One even though he has nothing in Christ?
And I take it that you believe God will love all the damned for all eternity in spite of the two passages I quoted that say differently?
Fat chance you have in getting a straight answer from any FWer. I've asked this very question a few times and either received no responses or received word salad replies.
Yes, I know that you have and so have I, but I like to restate it occasionally just to try to illustrate the immense gap in their logic.
An obvious question to ask when speaking about God's requirement for salvation is,
“What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?”
(which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
If God loves the world (JN 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (2TM 2:4),
then He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated
by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (MT 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls
on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per JN 1:1f.) they have received.
Three ways God/Christ is encountered include:
1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).
2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and
3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.