Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

In the realm of faith, one does not walk by proof, but these Scriptures obviously provide evidence that God's love is unconditional,
so why do you not share the same Spirit but instead kick against His goad? Apparently it is because you did not discern in JN 3:16 that although God's love is always unconditional, His salvation is eternally conditional upon saving belief/faith.

I won't have any problem if we discover at some time in the future that God's love happens to be unconditional. I am simply saying that the claim is not evidenced in scripture, so I don't have any reason to affirm it. Why is it so important to you that I bow to your opinion on the matter? And so irksome to you that I do not?

 

[PaulThomson]

How about this from Romans:

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro 5:8 NKJV)

Are you saying that because Christ died for everyone, the results for everyone are the same and there are no conditions that determine the results?

 

[Magenta]

And guess what else "teacher"? No body is making the argument that God does that. That is your own close minded, biggoted, looney toon version of what you've been told about a belief, with your own warped personal bias sprayed on top.

That is the biggest problem with talking to you and the CDSC (Calvinist Derangment Sysndrome Cult), you've made up this enemy in your own heads. Nobody makes the stupid arguements that you battle nonstop. No one. Your every argument elevates men and degrades God, even more than that your whole crews understanding of God the Spirit is not "lacking", it doesn't exist in anything you type. You never glorify God or point to Him at all, for anything. You do not concider His power or the transformation that happens when we are born again in ANY of your comments, arguments, theological beliefs, or anything else I've ever read from you or any of the others. You glory and take pride only in your choice and preceved superior understanding of scripture. You are all about you and your glory, we always point to God, we give the credit and glory to who it belongs to in truth, we give it ALL to Jesus. You simply don't.

John 3 verse 3, John 1 verse 13, James 1 verse 18, Romans 8 verse 9b, 1 Peter 2 verse 9 ~ Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. You are chosen to proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. My soul will exult in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness. Plus Isaiah 61 verse 10

 

[Rufus]

My loving my children is unconditional.

No, it isn't. You love YOUR children (as opposed to all the other children of the world) because they are YOURS. You love your children because they are a PART of you.

 

[Rufus]

This is a lot of work to be basing on the NIV translation which is different than many other translations (including the ESV the forum links to). And you're tackling a big subject and a heavily studied and debated word in the Hebrew Text, ḥesed which is used many times in the Hebrew Scriptures.

You're going to run into a lot of issues trying to convince most anybody, firstly about the meaning of ḥesed, then a bigger problem trying to attach ḥesed to agapē in John3:16.

Another consideration is that if God's agapē (agapaō - verb form) in John3:16 is supposedly covenantal, then it should be proven through analyzing its 140+ uses in the NC or at least the half of them that are in John's writings. Or maybe point us to research that has done just that.

Who is your target audience? Who do you intend to persuade?

What is "a lot of work": looking up the seven passages I cited re the covenant of love?

 

[GWH]

Refresh your screen = hit the circular arrow near the top left if on a PC. It's blue and working on my screen. Success. "A" for the day.

Now teach somebody some harmonized truth using your newly learned verse referencing skill.

My circular arrow is black. Does the toggle icon being black or blue have anything to do with this?

 

[Cameron143]

No, it isn't. You love YOUR children (as opposed to all the other children of the world) because they are YOURS. You love your children because they are a PART of you.

My choice to love them comes completely from within myself. It has nothing to do with what is true of them. Just as God has mercy on whom He has mercy, my decision to love my children is simply based on decision to set my affections upon them.
Should this be the way we extend love to all people? Sure. Do we? Generally not.

 

[Rufus]

You don't see the necessity of belief in John3:16 as an exception to "all men w/o exception"? John 3:17 isn't a stand-alone verse. It's actually tied to John3:16 with an explanatory conjunction meaning it's explaining or elaborating John3:16. The belief in John3:16 carries over into John3:17. He sent His Son to save the kosmos of men. If all men w/o exception believe, then all men w/o exception can be saved.

Yeah...and IF "IFS and BUTS were candy and nuts, everyday would Christmas, too.

I take Jn 3:17 at face value and understand it to be that God sent Jesus into the World to save the Gentiles nations, which is precisely what God promised his Faithful Servant he would do on his behalf, i.e. make him a light to the Gentiles. God sent his Son into the world to save all those the Father gave to him in eternity.

The "necessity of belief" is exactly what qualifies the Gr. term "kosmos". God so loved the world that all in the world who believe on him shall not perish but have eternal live. And this interpretation harmonizes perfectly with Jesus' prayer in John 17, since Jesus did NOT pray for all men w/o exception! Prior to the NC, Abraham's physical descendants (as nation) were the sole recipients of God's covenant of love. But in this NC economy, which fulfills the Abrahamic Covenant, that covenant of love applies to all Abraham's spiritual descendants.

 

[GWH]

No, it isn't. You love YOUR children (as opposed to all the other children of the world) because they are YOURS. You love your children because they are a PART of you.

Love for his children and friends is conditional if the lover does not love all children and enemies too.

 

[studier]

My circular arrow is black. Does the toggle icon being black or blue have anything to do with this?

Just start hitting buttons. Have fun. Funny, my first reaction to this post was, Just do what I say!

I've found that when I post, the hyperlinked (blue) verse references don't show up. Clicking the refresh (black circular arrow) resolves this and they show up. If they're formatted correctly, once you post, we can see them in your posts even if you can't yet.

 

[GWH]

I won't have any problem if we discover at some time in the future that God's love happens to be unconditional. I am simply saying that the claim is not evidenced in scripture, so I don't have any reason to affirm it. Why is it so important to you that I bow to your opinion on the matter? And so irksome to you that I do not?

You are not aware that a major NT theme is spiritual unity among all Christians?

Disunity irks/grieves God!

(And if I am wrong, I want to know why and amend the website :^)

 

[Rufus]

My choice to love them comes completely from within myself. It has nothing to do with what is true of them. Just as God has mercy on whom He has mercy, my decision to love my children is simply based on decision to set my affections upon them.
Should this be the way we extend love to all people? Sure. Do we? Generally not.

But would you love them in the filial sense if they weren't yours? You love them because they BELONG to you; just as God loves his elect because they belong to him -- and they belong to him because he sovereignly brought them into a covenant relationship with himself.

As far as us loving our neighbor, we do not love them with a filial love. We cannot love anyone deeply and profoundly that we don't KNOW! The big emphasis on our love expressed on a horizontal plane is that we should have a loving disposition toward our neighbor and this loving disposition of heart is defined for us in 1Cor 13. But generally we don't love our neighbor as we love our OWN -- like we love our parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, adopted children, etc. in the filial sense.

 

[Mem]

I recently learned that the common understanding of predestination aligns with the Islamic idea that Allah designates some to Henna and others to Gehenna, and so what had been irritating me all along about it has finally been scratched.

 

[GWH]

Just start hitting buttons. Have fun. Funny, my first reaction to this post was, Just do what I say!

I've found that when I post, the hyperlinked (blue) verse references don't show up. Clicking the refresh (black circular arrow) resolves this and they show up. If they're formatted correctly, once you post, we can see them in your posts even if you can't yet.

Okay, I will try that now: Well, that was weird. Refreshing deleted the JN3:16 reference I had typed after the

That made "colon" disappear that was after "the"

I replied and saw no blue which I am now letting you know by editing the post.

 

[Cameron143]

But would you love them in the filial sense if they weren't yours? You love them because they BELONG to you; just as God loves his elect because they belong to him -- and they belong to him because he sovereignly brought them into a covenant relationship with himself.

As far as us loving our neighbor, we do not love them with a filial love. We cannot love anyone deeply and profoundly that we don't KNOW! The big emphasis on our love expressed on a horizontal plane is that we should have a loving disposition toward our neighbor and this loving disposition of heart is defined for us in 1Cor 13. But generally we don't love our neighbor as we love our OWN -- like we love our parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, adopted children, etc. in the filial sense.

They don't belong to me; they belong to God. I have been blessed with the responsibility of their care. Hence, I have opportunity to share expressions of love more frequently and more intimately with them. But this doesn't change the nature of the love.

 

[studier]

Yeah...and IF "IFS and BUTS were candy and nuts, everyday would Christmas, too.

I take Jn 3:17 at face value and understand it to be that God sent Jesus into the World to save the Gentiles nations, which is precisely what God promised his Faithful Servant he would do on his behalf, i.e. make him a light to the Gentiles. God sent his Son into the world to save all those the Father gave to him in eternity.

The "necessity of belief" is exactly what qualifies the Gr. term "kosmos". God so loved the world that all in the world who believe on him shall not perish but have eternal live. And this interpretation harmonizes perfectly with Jesus' prayer in John 17, since Jesus did NOT pray for all men w/o exception! Prior to the NC, Abraham's physical descendants (as nation) were the sole recipients of God's covenant of love. But in this NC economy, which fulfills the Abrahamic Covenant, that covenant of love applies to all Abraham's spiritual descendants.

We have rules of grammar and context for a reason. They're quite helpful in interpretation.

 

[studier]

Okay, I will try that now: Well, that was weird. Refreshing deleted the JN3:16 reference I had typed after the

That made "colon" disappear that was after "the"

I replied and saw no blue which I am now letting you know by editing the post.

Post and then hit refresh!

 

[Cameron143]

But would you love them in the filial sense if they weren't yours? You love them because they BELONG to you; just as God loves his elect because they belong to him -- and they belong to him because he sovereignly brought them into a covenant relationship with himself.

As far as us loving our neighbor, we do not love them with a filial love. We cannot love anyone deeply and profoundly that we don't KNOW! The big emphasis on our love expressed on a horizontal plane is that we should have a loving disposition toward our neighbor and this loving disposition of heart is defined for us in 1Cor 13. But generally we don't love our neighbor as we love our OWN -- like we love our parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, adopted children, etc. in the filial sense.

The type of love doesn't change the reason for loving. Either one is loving as a result of their own choice or they are not. In other words, agape love and filial love can be expressed unconditionally.

 

[GWH]

Post and then hit refresh!

Okay. John3:16

Ahh. That worked. Thanks!

 

[Rufus]

Love for his children and friends is conditional if the lover does not love all children and enemies too.

And you love each and every single person in the world that you don't know or ever will know in the same exact way that you love your own? What about the overtly wicked enemies of God? Do you have the attitude of David? Or do you think David was way behind the times and he never caught up to the NT scriptures?

Ps 26:5
5 I abhor the assembly of evildoers
and refuse to sit with the wicked.
NIV

Ps 139:21-22
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
NIV

Sadly, far too many today do not see that hatred can be a virtue -- just like jealousy can be a virtue! David obviously shared God's holy sentiments about the wicked! I've said this previously and I'll say it again: I take great delight in the knowledge that God CANNOT love (at minimum in the covenantal sense) whatever or whoever is evil! God can never go rogue on me! Evil is the absence of everything God IS. This is precisely why there are so many explicit passages in scripture that teach that God's love is indeed conditional in nature; for he can only love in the covenantal sense those who love him and obey him...IOW...DO GOODERS, as opposed to evildoers.

So...get to work. Find me one verse in the bible that explicitly says that God loves sinners, the wicked, the depraved, reprobates, fools, etc.