I think you are purposefully twisting what @Cameron143 has said.
It seems you don't actually know what love entails or means. Especially when it comes to children.
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
It seems you don't actually know what love entails or means. Especially when it comes to children.
Well, I guess we agree. If we use your definition of "unconditional love", God's love is unconditional. If we use my definition of "conditional love", God's love is conditional.
So, does God unconditionally love satan, by your standards?
I have been sharing GW about GL ad nauseum, but here are some again:
MT 5:44&48, 22:37-40, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4, 1JN 4:7-21.
I know, I know, they aren't in blue and they don't say exactly "God's love is unconditional",
so sue me. You really ought to be going the second mile by now with being able to translate
meaning as well as literal word for word, don't you think?
(LIC :^)
Fair enough, but that's why I would never employ your definition.
Your last remark is silly.
Could you please show some degree of respect, and cut and past the verses you are listing. It is very rude of you to make others do all the work you should be putting in. Maybe, if you post the actual wording of the verses, everyone will immediately be able to see that they don't say what you are claiming they prove.
PaulThomson said:
Well, I guess we agree. If we use your definition of ?unconditional love", God's love is unconditional. If we use my definition of "conditional love", God's love is conditional.
So, does God unconditionally love satan, by your standards?
So, does God unconditionally love satan, by your standards?
Well, I guess we agree. If we use your definition of ?unconditional love", God's love is unconditional. If we use my definition of "conditional love", God's love is conditional.
So, does God unconditionally love satan, by your standards?
Can you please give a reasonable answer to my question?
So, does God unconditionally love satan, by your standards?
God doesn't love Satan. Neither is God under any obligation to love anyone. What scripture do you believe supports such an argument?
In Scripture we read, God's expressions of love are conditional; His love,which created all that exists, isn't.
Does God love Satan? Sure.
In The Book of Job we realize Satan can only go as far as God allows.
It is ruder of you to ask for Scripture you should know by heart by now
and know they mean God loves everyone even His enemies,
chief of whom would be Satan.
No. It's either extended or not. If it is extended, it is unconditional for the recipient.
I believe precisely what John3:16-17 say. They do not say what you're saying they say.
I'm sure if you'd want to you could put this together. By reading Genesis1-2, how long was the kosmos in the sense of the inhabited world uninhabited? Reading John1:9-10 it's pretty easy to see how John is speaking mainly of the inhabited kosmos and of its inhabitants. There's no dilemma re: the meaning of kosmos here and it's same meaning in John3:16-17.
Thanks for the link. It confirms what I said re: meanings of kosmos and the necessity of paying attention to context.
Look at all John's uses of kosmos from John1-3. What Jesus was sent for is very clear John1:9-10, John 1:29, John3:16-17.
I don't see a contradiction. And this gets back to what I was saying about our inabilities to grasp - to understand - God's Love and what it means that God is Love. And as I said, we are seeing and living dimly and at our best we are but images of Him and distinct from Him.
There was a teacher I know some on these threads were taught or influenced by, RBThieme. In one of his series on Love he essentially said God does not love us because of who we are, but because of who He is. RBT called this impersonal love as I recall. He taught it in part to impress a mindset upon Christians how we are to function in God's image, with a character matured to better imitate God who is Love. He broke love down into impersonal (where you might categorize beneficent love) and personal (where you might place filial love) categories
It's not out of reason that men can love - be loving - even when hating. What can God, who is Love, do? John3:16 God loved the world in this manner: He gave His Son
Scripturally re: the contradiction you're proposing:
NKJ Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked (asebēs) and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
NKJ Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly (asebēs), his faith is accounted for righteousness,
NKJ Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly (asebēs).
Apparently, YHWH's soul hates the ungodly (Psalm11:5) Yet God loved the kosmos of ungodly men by giving His only Son (John3:16) who died for ungodly men (Rom5:6) - ungodly men whom God justifies (Rom5:6) - every man in the kosmos who believes for eternal life (John3:16) and is saved (John3:17).
As I said, I don't see a contradiction.
What I think is that we're too quick to see God through human eyes and human experience as humans that are only created in His image but are not Him especially when still living in a fallen creation in psuchikos bodies.
I don't agree with this reasoning. I think it's easy to see even just from the above and from what I've explained from GJohn that God gave His Son so "every man" in/of the kosmos who believes may have eternal life. God's Love is simply infinitely more vast than the simplistic love vs. hate that men have.
As Christians I think we're supposed to begin grasping this just as Paul prayed for (Eph3:14-21; Col3:14; 1John2:5; 1John4:12 1John4:17 1John4:18)
PT recently cited some writer who came up with four kinds of love. But if the writer had dug a little deeper into the Word he would have discovered a fifth kind of love: God's Covenant of Love (Deut 7:9, 12; 1Ki 23; 2Chron 6:14; Neh 1:5; 9:32; Dan 9:4). I have alluded to this covenant quite often recently, so now is the time to investigate what this covenant is and who the parties are to this covenant. I'll begin by quoting two of the above seven passages:
Deut 7:12
12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.
NIV
And,
Dan 9:4
I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands,
NIV
The first thing we learn from Deut 7 is that this "covenant of love" was obviously made with Abraham when God made his covenant with him, and then later, of course, those promises were reiterated and passed on to Issac and Jacob .
And the second important takeaway is that this "covenant of love" is conditional in nature -- as conditional as the Covenant Law of Moses itself! For Israel to participate in this covenant they needed to love God and keep his Law! So...the question that is begging for an answer is this: How in the world do the New Covenant people of God participate in this "covenant of love"? Don't we, too, have to love God and obey his commandments? Or has God lowered his standard for his NC people? (This last question rhetorical!). Not hardly! God himself qualifies his elect to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light (Col 1:12).
And how does God qualify his elect? He qualifies the elect through his unilaeral NC promises! God gives his chosen people a new heart; He writes his holy Law upon their hearts; He gives them the precious gift of the Holy Spirit; He circumcises their hearts so that they can love him; He instills the Fear of Himself into their hearts so that they'll never turn away from him; He raises them up from their spiritual tombs, etc. (Deut 30; Jer 31-32; Ezek 36-37). And there's not even the remotest hint in any of these chapters that God either seeks our permission or expects our cooperation in order to fulfill the unilateral stipulations.
But even so...flawless, pure, unadulterated love and perfect faithfulness have always been required of God's moral creatures -- things that none of us can do. But the Last Adam stood in the gap between God and all of his chosen people! Again, let me remind everyone what Jesus taught about God's love:
John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV
And,
John 15:10
10 "IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
NASB
How God's NC people participate in this covenant of love is by virtue of the indwelling Spirit of Christ who is the Embodiment of the New Covenant (Isa 49:8). If God is Love, then so is his Beloved Son! Therefore, not only do we have our appointed Federal Head's perfect love and obedience to rely upon for our eternal justification, but from an existential perspective the very indwelling and embodiment Love of God Himself fills our souls with godly, agape love for Him and his Father. Talk about GRACE!!!
John 17:25-26
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
NIV
And we should not forget that the world that doesn't know God is the world for whom Jesus did not pray (v. 9!
In closing, I believe this next passage "seals the deal" in terms of this covenant of love.
Rom 8:32-39
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died — more than that, who was raised to life — is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to SEPARATE us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV
Time and space will permit only three of many other noteworthy observations. First, God's saints will never be separated from His love. This means no one can ever lose his salvation; for if that could happen then God failed to make good on his promises. Is not the Second Death eternal separation from God presence?
Secondly, since covenantal love is what is in view in Jn 3:16, we cannot understand the Gr. term "kosmos" as being used in the distributive sense, since the vast majority of the world rejects Christ and will be separated from him for all eternity. Therefore, to interpret Jn 3:16 properly, we must have a good understanding of the nature of God's love -- and who He loves covenantally and who He doesn't! Jn 3:16 goes well beyond mere beneficient love, as glorious as this is. For the glory of God's covenantal love far surpasses it.
And finally, this "love of God" is only found "in Christ Jesus our Lord." Jesus Christ himself is the ground -- the very basis -- the very bedrock of God's love for his saints. Paul didn't end his sentence in v.39 after "God" -- but continued on to qualify God's love for the saints. God doesn't love any saint because of any saint! God loves all his elect BECAUSE of the perfect love and faithfulness of the Last Adam who is the federal representative of all God's chosen people. Conversely, the ungodly world -- those "of the world" (for which Jesus did not pray in Jn 17:9) can only hate God since those outside of Christ cannot love Him. Jesus Christ Himself is the very embodimemnt of the Love of God -- and it is He who lives in each of us who have truly repented and believed on Him.
All of this gives new meaning to 1Jn 4:19: "We love because he first loved us." And since this is the case, this means that God knew each and every one of his elect before the beginning of time -- unlike those in Mat 7:23 -- as well as the vast majority of the "world" as FWs undertand this term in Jn 3:16. It's more than a just a big horse pill to swallow to believe that God sent his Son into the World to atone for the sins of all men w/o exception whom God never knew in eternity.
Deut 7:12
12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.
NIV
And,
Dan 9:4
I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands,
NIV
The first thing we learn from Deut 7 is that this "covenant of love" was obviously made with Abraham when God made his covenant with him, and then later, of course, those promises were reiterated and passed on to Issac and Jacob .
And the second important takeaway is that this "covenant of love" is conditional in nature -- as conditional as the Covenant Law of Moses itself! For Israel to participate in this covenant they needed to love God and keep his Law! So...the question that is begging for an answer is this: How in the world do the New Covenant people of God participate in this "covenant of love"? Don't we, too, have to love God and obey his commandments? Or has God lowered his standard for his NC people? (This last question rhetorical!). Not hardly! God himself qualifies his elect to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light (Col 1:12).
And how does God qualify his elect? He qualifies the elect through his unilaeral NC promises! God gives his chosen people a new heart; He writes his holy Law upon their hearts; He gives them the precious gift of the Holy Spirit; He circumcises their hearts so that they can love him; He instills the Fear of Himself into their hearts so that they'll never turn away from him; He raises them up from their spiritual tombs, etc. (Deut 30; Jer 31-32; Ezek 36-37). And there's not even the remotest hint in any of these chapters that God either seeks our permission or expects our cooperation in order to fulfill the unilateral stipulations.
But even so...flawless, pure, unadulterated love and perfect faithfulness have always been required of God's moral creatures -- things that none of us can do. But the Last Adam stood in the gap between God and all of his chosen people! Again, let me remind everyone what Jesus taught about God's love:
John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV
And,
John 15:10
10 "IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
NASB
How God's NC people participate in this covenant of love is by virtue of the indwelling Spirit of Christ who is the Embodiment of the New Covenant (Isa 49:8). If God is Love, then so is his Beloved Son! Therefore, not only do we have our appointed Federal Head's perfect love and obedience to rely upon for our eternal justification, but from an existential perspective the very indwelling and embodiment Love of God Himself fills our souls with godly, agape love for Him and his Father. Talk about GRACE!!!
John 17:25-26
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
NIV
And we should not forget that the world that doesn't know God is the world for whom Jesus did not pray (v. 9!
In closing, I believe this next passage "seals the deal" in terms of this covenant of love.
Rom 8:32-39
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all — how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died — more than that, who was raised to life — is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to SEPARATE us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV
Time and space will permit only three of many other noteworthy observations. First, God's saints will never be separated from His love. This means no one can ever lose his salvation; for if that could happen then God failed to make good on his promises. Is not the Second Death eternal separation from God presence?
Secondly, since covenantal love is what is in view in Jn 3:16, we cannot understand the Gr. term "kosmos" as being used in the distributive sense, since the vast majority of the world rejects Christ and will be separated from him for all eternity. Therefore, to interpret Jn 3:16 properly, we must have a good understanding of the nature of God's love -- and who He loves covenantally and who He doesn't! Jn 3:16 goes well beyond mere beneficient love, as glorious as this is. For the glory of God's covenantal love far surpasses it.
And finally, this "love of God" is only found "in Christ Jesus our Lord." Jesus Christ himself is the ground -- the very basis -- the very bedrock of God's love for his saints. Paul didn't end his sentence in v.39 after "God" -- but continued on to qualify God's love for the saints. God doesn't love any saint because of any saint! God loves all his elect BECAUSE of the perfect love and faithfulness of the Last Adam who is the federal representative of all God's chosen people. Conversely, the ungodly world -- those "of the world" (for which Jesus did not pray in Jn 17:9) can only hate God since those outside of Christ cannot love Him. Jesus Christ Himself is the very embodimemnt of the Love of God -- and it is He who lives in each of us who have truly repented and believed on Him.
All of this gives new meaning to 1Jn 4:19: "We love because he first loved us." And since this is the case, this means that God knew each and every one of his elect before the beginning of time -- unlike those in Mat 7:23 -- as well as the vast majority of the "world" as FWs undertand this term in Jn 3:16. It's more than a just a big horse pill to swallow to believe that God sent his Son into the World to atone for the sins of all men w/o exception whom God never knew in eternity.
This is a lot of work to be basing on the NIV translation which is different than many other translations (including the ESV the forum links to). And you're tackling a big subject and a heavily studied and debated word in the Hebrew Text, ḥesed which is used many times in the Hebrew Scriptures.
You're going to run into a lot of issues trying to convince most anybody, firstly about the meaning of ḥesed, then a bigger problem trying to attach ḥesed to agapē in John3:16.
Another consideration is that if God's agapē (agapaō - verb form) in John3:16 is supposedly covenantal, then it should be proven through analyzing its 140+ uses in the NC or at least the half of them that are in John's writings. Or maybe point us to research that has done just that.
Who is your target audience? Who do you intend to persuade?
I've already done the work for you to show you the many formats the system will pick up for verse referencing. As I recall you responded to the posts where I did so. Look at the posts where the verse references are being picked up by the system and shaded blue and see how you can hover your cursor over them and the verse will pop up. You can also click the blue verse reference, and it will take you to another screen where you can read the verse(s). Those are examples of what the system will identify. You can see that the system is not identifying the way you format verse references. This is one of the problems with being too individually creative.
Since it is so easy I will just let y'all do it, but thanks.
(My eyes glazed over at "formats" and I have no idea where those posts are.)