What did you like about his post???
I agree with his viewpoints. I'll humbly say, he explained it better than I could. I don't know what more I can say
The Lord had said to Abram
- Thread starter Omegatime
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I agree with his viewpoints. I'll humbly say, he explained it better than I could. I don't know what more I can say
Israel is living in a troubled time.
But the nation of Israel today is not the nation promised to Israel in the millennial 1000 years .
Nation of Israel exists today by the will of men, and Im not saying God is unaware.
But we are in the times of the Gentiles for if the Lord was with Israel as when they entered the promised land, the troubles existing today would not be happening.
What is shortly coming on the world is based on time and increase of sin.
Promises made to Israel are still in effect.
But the nation of Israel today is not the nation promised to Israel in the millennial 1000 years .
Nation of Israel exists today by the will of men, and Im not saying God is unaware.
But we are in the times of the Gentiles for if the Lord was with Israel as when they entered the promised land, the troubles existing today would not be happening.
What is shortly coming on the world is based on time and increase of sin.
Promises made to Israel are still in effect.
I agree with his viewpoints. I'll humbly say, he explained it better than I could. I don't know what more I can say
All he wrote was this:
It had nothing to do at all with his responsibility as a gentile believer. What is there to like about that? *Shrug*
It's okay. I think I remember your participation now in the Forum News section....
There's a war coming that they won't win.
● Rev 13:7-8 . . And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and
to overcome them
"saints" in the book of Revelation always pertains to the people whom God
selected many years ago to be His people.
"This is what The Lord says: "Israel is my firstborn son." (Ex 4:22)
"For The Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He
found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him
about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye." (Deut 32:9
11)
The Greek word translated "saints" basically means sacred. While true that
the Jews don't seem all that sacred per se --it's their situation with God that
makes them so.
_
It still doesn't give you privilege to have that unrepentant, ungodly attitude toward them. You too have unbelief that God doesn't discipline His people who are unrepentant, otherwise you'd not despise Israeli Jews.
You accidentally quoted me when you meant to quote someone who despises Israeli Jews.
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Only children of promise are God’s people. This includes those who were once Jews or Gentiles but are now the Body of Christ.
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Only children of promise are God’s people. This includes those who were once Jews or Gentiles but are now the Body of Christ.
Saints also include God's gentile believers.
So I take it that you're a pre-tribber? And that you think you'll be whisked away before the great tribulation to leave only Jews on the earth?
I'm post-trib and know you'll still be here as one of God's saints. Be prepared for the antichrist's war against you. Since the God already warns us in the Bible that the antichrist will overcome the saints, prepare and endure to the end!
How about the Jews that will believe in the future? Since you don't know who they are yet, you can't go around hating on them in their current state of unbelief.
And you and the others who agree with you DO hate them. No one has to actually say they hate someone or something literally. Your view of them would be enough to show everyone else. Including God.
If the 144,000 are already here, it just means that the sixth seal has passed and the seventh seal is no longer delayed. That does not necessarily mean we are in the great tribulation right now. It depends on which seals/trumpets/bowls you consider to be part of the great tribulation. So I think it is possible that the 144,000 have already been sealed, as natural Israelites who believed in Jesus over the centuries, even though we are not yet in the great tribulation.
I think you are both right to some extent.
God made a covenant with Israel, so every natural descendant of Israel is bound by it. In that sense, they are God's people, who are subject to the Law, its blessings and curses, but they will be redeemed from the Law and the curse if they believe in Jesus and die to the Law (Rom. 7:4). Not all of them believe in Jesus today, but one day all Israel will be saved (Rom. 11:26). They are still beloved for the sake of the fathers (Rom. 11:28).
But I have a suspicion that not all natural descendants of Israel are God's chosen people. This is dangerous territory, so please correct me if I am wrong. But this is my reasoning:
In Exodus 19:5-6 (NKJV), God says that the people of Israel would be a special treasure, a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation, but it is conditional on "if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant". Fast forward to Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a special people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth." It is now an unconditional statement. But notice that Moses wrote Deuteronomy 7:6 after 40 years in the wilderness. All of the disobedient Israelites who refused to enter Canaan in Numbers 14, the rebels that followed Korah, Dathan and Abiram in Numbers 16, and the people who worshipped Baal of Peor in Numbers 25 had already died. Only the new generation of faithful Israelites were alive. Deuteronomy 4:4 says: "But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you."
Centuries later in Hosea 1:9, God says to the people of Israel, particularly the northern kingdom, that "You are not My people, And I will not be your God." Of course God longs for the people of Israel to be His people, but it seems like it is possible for this relationship to be broken for individual Israelites, though not for the whole nation. As Aaron56 quoted from Romans 9:6: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel". Also Romans 11:5 says "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace". Elect = chosen. So those who are elect/chosen and believe in Jesus are God's elect/chosen people.
I think 1 Peter was written to Jews in the Dispersion who believed in Jesus (1 Peter 1:1-2). 1 Peter 2:9-10 says: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises fo Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy"
Romans 9 verses 6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.
Thanks for the info!
I've read over Revelation 6:12-7:17 that talks about the sixth seal and the 144,000. I just don't see any of it come to pass yet.
I did a search to see what the general consensus is about whether the sixth seal had come to pass already and others agree that the answer is NO. But pre-tribbers seem to want to believe this is so because they think the pre-trib rapture will happen at this point. Now I understand why @Aaron56 mentioned it because he is a pre-tribber too.
Here is an article on why the sixth seal hasn't come to pass yet:
Question / Comment - Is the rapture at the 6th seal and have some seals been opened already?
A recent thought concerning the rapture is that it is at the 6th seal in Rev 6:12-17. In connection to this some believe that the seals have already been opened through Church history and that the 6th seal is the next to be opened (with the rapture). I was recently asked why I don't agree with this and wrote the following 7 quick points from Revelation.
1. The God given outline/order for Revelation is in Rev 1:19 where John is told to write the past, present and future things. The present things, 'the things which are', speak of the 7 churches representing the church age. The future things, that which take place 'after these' ('meta tauta') starts in Rev 4:1 where this phrase 'meta tauta' is used twice in the one verse to make it clear this starts the future things. In other words the future events, after the church age, start in Rev 4:1, not in Rev 6:12 or thereabouts.
2. In connection to point 1, Rev 4:1 is a far greater pointer to the rapture than the 6th seal. The imagery used in Rev 4:1 has an open door to heaven (which only opens twice in Revelation, here and when Jesus returns in Rev 19:11), a trumpet sound, a command given by Jesus to 'come up here' and an instant translation of John immediately into Heaven before the throne. This is a type of the rapture at the end of the church age before the 'future things' begin. John was called to ‘come up here’ to see the things that take place ‘after this’ and so will the church. In comparison, the 6th seal doesn't have the key signs of the rapture that we would expect. There is no trumpet, no shout or command, no coming of the Lord mentioned or any sign of believers getting caught up into heaven at the 6th seal.
3. If the seals have been opened already and the rider on the white horse is the church right from Pentecost, when did they/we receive our 'stephanos' victors crown as this rider has? Believers in Christ do not receive their crowns until the judgement seat of Christ. Not before. Until then we run the race but it is not till the judgement seat, after the Lord returns, that we receive our rewards. Rev 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
4. In connection to 3 above the elders are seen with their 'stephanos' victor’s crown. So Jesus has come by this point (because the crowns aren't given till He returns) which makes sense as the cross-over point to 'future things' is Rev 4:1, not the end of chapter 6. To say that the elders are Old Testament saints taken to heaven after the resurrection ignores the fact that everything seen in the elders (seated on thrones, dressed in white, crowns of gold etc) are promises in the letters given to the Church (Rev 3:21, Rev 3:4, Rev 2:10). It also ignores the fact that Old Testament saints are NOT made perfect without us (Heb 11:40) so will not be rewarded with their crowns yet.
5. If the seals with the 4 horsemen have already been opened during the Church age then you have Jesus opening these seals and bringing forth judgements that include the death of 1/4 of the earth's population… during the age of grace! (Rev 6:8) It just doesn't make sense. Not only can we not point to when the seals have been opened in history (ie when did 1/4 of the earth’s population die?), but this is still the age of grace, not the day of vengeance and judgement.
6. Many Bible scholars have noted the connection (in order even) between the seals and the events leading up to the second coming as stated by Jesus in Matt 24. For example, speaking of the signs of His coming Jesus said there would be false Christs (1st seal, rider on white horse), wars and rumours of wars (2nd seal, war, peace taken from earth), famine, plagues and earthquakes (3rd seal famine, 4th seal death), martyrdom (5th seal martyrs), then later after the tribulation the heavenly signs announcing His coming (6th seal heavenly signs). These signs are end time birth pains and tribulation signs, as are the seals, not general things that happen throughout the 2000 year church age.
7. Finally, in connection to 6 and the mention of the 6th seal, let me go out on a wee limb and say that I believe the 6th seal is AT THE END of the tribulation, not the start as you have it. Jesus spoke of these exact signs in Matt 24:29 as AFTER the tribulation and linked it with His second coming (Matt 24:30) when all the nations see Him. Isaiah also spoke of this event (6th seal) when the heavens will be rolled up as a scroll (Isa 34:4) and linked it with the Lord’s destruction of the earth’s armies (Isa 34:2-3) and the great sacrifice even in Bozrah. This is when/where the Lord returns to at His 2nd coming to destroy those that try to kill the remnant of Israel hiding there (Isa 63:1-6). This is all second coming in glory stuff! And Isaiah places the 6th seal at this event at the end of the tribulation. As did Jesus Himself.
I realise this last point differs from the more traditional view that the seals lead on into the trumpets. I believe that the seals give an overview of the entire tribulation period leading right to the end. I have written a little about this here if interested: https://jesusplusnothing.com/series/post/chronology-of-revelation
Hope this helps.
Even if they've already sealed you don't know who they are. How can you single them out to love and accept as one of our own from all the other Jews, especially the ones in Israel?
I don't believe that 1 Peter was only written to the Jewish believers. It doesn't say that anywhere. If you want to be literal about who it is addressed to here's what it says:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Do you think that letter was only meant for the Jewish believers-elect in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia?
Of only that current period of time?
Or for all the Jewish believers everywhere?
Not for gentile believers?
Not for all believers through all time?
Why is this letter even included in the Bible if it's only meant for a small group of believers? Who are already dead now?
None of that reasoning makes sense.
Please read it again and see that it is to all of believers, not just to those mentioned in those cities at that period of time. It is for all of us through all the time until the Lord's return.
Of course.
Often people think Jews,when thinking Israel.
However, Abraham was a Gentile.
We two peoples, Jews and Gentiles, have been united from that beginning.
Do you feel blessed?
If so,good. That's just as your father promised.
God bless.
Etymology:
Israel
Old English Israel, "the Jewish people, the Hebrew nation," from Latin Israel, from Greek, from Hebrew yisra'el "he that striveth with God" (Genesis xxxii.28), symbolic proper name conferred on Jacob and extended to his descendants, from sara "he fought, contended" + El "God." As the name of an independent Jewish state in the Middle East, it is attested from 1948. Compare Israeli, Israelite.
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree." " Romans 11:11-17
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16
Rev. 4:1 does not need to start after the church age. It can start after AD 95 when John wrote Revelation.
The main purpose of Rev. 4:1 is to see future things that Jesus will show. Is that really the main purpose of the rapture? I don't think so. Rev. 19:11 is not the rapture. The rapture happens before the great multitude appear in Rev. 19:1. I think Jesus came down as a mighty angel having authority and illuminates the earth with his glory in Rev. 18:1 and a voice says "Come out" (Rev. 18:4). I think Rev. 6:12 at the sixth seal is a preview of things that will happen later.
I don't think the rider on the white horse is the church right from Pentecost
I think the 4 horsemen are the Tetrarchy around AD 293. https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-for-the-four-horsemen-of-revelation.218413/
I agree that they are not general things. See #5.
I agree Rev. 6:12-17 is the end of the tribulation, and is chronologically at the time of the sixth seal. It is a preview of things to come. Just like Rev. 7:14 is a preview of things to come at the end of the tribulation. Notice how Rev. 6:14 and Rev. 16:20 are very similar, and Rev. 7:9-12 and Rev. 19:1-6 are very similar.
Reading Rev. 8:1-2, I am convinced that the seventh seal is followed by the seven trumpets. The silence preceding the trumpets seems like an intentional contrast and reminds me of the battle of Jericho. Also, something is "given" at each seal (except the third where a prophecy is given), and I think the trumpets are given at the 7th seal.
When they are sealed, I think it refers to a natural descendant of Israel believing in Jesus and receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13). If they confess Christ, then you will know that they are sealed.
The Greek word translated "scattered" in 1 Peter 1:2 is "diasporas", which can be understood as Jews who were dispersed away from their homeland. It does not make sense to call them a diaspora of Greek people who live in their native land.I don't believe that 1 Peter was only written to the Jewish believers. It doesn't say that anywhere. If you want to be literal about who it is addressed to here's what it says:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Do you think that letter was only meant for the Jewish believers-elect in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia?
Of only that current period of time?
Or for all the Jewish believers everywhere?
Not for gentile believers?
Not for all believers through all time?
Why is this letter even included in the Bible if it's only meant for a small group of believers? Who are already dead now?
None of that reasoning makes sense.
Please read it again and see that it is to all of believers, not just to those mentioned in those cities at that period of time. It is for all of us through all the time until the Lord's return.
Was the Epistle of Titus only written to Titus? Why is this letter even included in the Bible?
Yes, things written in books of the Bible can apply to other Christians too, even if they were not the original target audience.
Yeah, I agree with that. But like I said, none of us know who they are and could well be among those Jews in Israel right now. I don't see you being hostile towards them, but there are people who use that as an excuse to hate them. That's really off-putting!
I don't see that kind of hate toward any other group - not even towards Muslims who are openly hostile not to just Jews but Christians as well.
Yes, I understood it being a Jewish diaspora and not of Greek. But when I read 1 Peter, I always apply it to myself and all believers past, future and present regardless of their origin. It's only been recent and in this forum that I've seen people saying that only parts of the Bible are speaking directly to Christians while other parts are only for Jews.
It's just so strange! In light of that, I really think Jesus is coming back soon - so many hokey things are happening in the world and in the Church.....
I appreciate the value you put on scripture.
You wrote:
I underlined the portion that is evidence that Peter's audience was not the Jews. He is writing to people "who once were not a people". The Jews, even if scattered, were always a distinct people with a distinct homeland. These are certainly gentile believers or mostly so.
Let's go back further.
You wrote:
This is not forbearance: God is not saying "If you obey the covenant I am about to give you". No, the covenant at work at the time these words were spoken was the same one active during Abraham's time: Hear God and believe.
The people at Sinai were to gradually, in order, come up to be in the presence of God. But they did not out of fear. In their stead, they sent Moses as their representative. Because the people refused to come into God's presence at Sinai - because of these transgressions - they were given the Law.
"the law was added because of transgressions..."
So, instead of becoming a kingdom of royal priests - a condition only accomplished through transformation and adoption - only one tribe of 12 were the designated priests. Instead of being a holy nation they became an idolatrous nation. The Law only produced slaves, never sons of God.
The chosen people of God are named in Isaac - children of promise.
"6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Physical DNA benefits no one in the Kingdom of God.
Just a bit further in Romans the prophet Hosea is quoted:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
This comes full circle back to 1 Peter:
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy"
The people of God were always people of promise. From faithful Abel to believing Abram, the Chaldean, to Christ. Now, all who are the sons of God, His own special people, are found in the Body of Christ. AND, we all come to our Father in the same manner - through the blood of His only Begotten Son.
I believe that the 'learning of the parable of the fig tree' began in that year.
