Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

scholarly response.

Oh...you want a "scholarly response"? Why didn't you say so?

The Body of Christ does not consist of multiple levels of believers. Every single believer is called and expected to serve their Lord and Savior. Every single believer has been given a gift to use in SERVICE to their Lord. Even the entire elect nation of Israel was expected to serve YHWH (Josh 24:15)!

Do you have any more of your wisdom droppings to dig out the latrine?

 

[Magenta]

John 15 verse 5c; Philippians 2 verse 13 ~ Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

 

[Rufus]

John 15 verse 5c; Philippians 2 verse 13 ~ Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

Hmmm...without doubt the FWs must think that when God sovereignly works his will into his people that means He's forcing himself upon us. Maybe Paul forgot to add that God only works his will into his saints only if they have his permission...

 

[Magenta]

Hmmm...without doubt the FWs must think that when God sovereignly works his will into his people that means He's forcing himself upon us. Maybe Paul forgot to add that God only works his will into his saints only if they have his permission...

Well, some have outright said such things re: being forced. Black-and-white thinking rules their theology. Not Scripture.

 

[EddieM]

Oh...you want a "scholarly response"? Why didn't you say so?

The Body of Christ does not consist of multiple levels of believers. Every single believer is called and expected to serve their Lord and Savior. Every single believer has been given a gift to use in SERVICE to their Lord. Even the entire elect nation of Israel was expected to serve YHWH (Josh 24:15)!

Do you have any more of your wisdom droppings to dig out the latrine?

This is your idea of a scholarly response?? My friend, you are in big trouble.

 

[Rufus]

This is your idea of a scholarly response?? My friend, you are in big trouble.

Mr. Wanna-be Scholar sir...have you never read that "you reap what you sow"? Or if you don't like that then there's always Prov 26:4-5 upon which to meditate.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

IOW, the natural man can understand the Gospel because God has provisioned it with sufficient power and with His Spirit to make it understandable. The natural man and the baby Christian (as yet) cannot understand these deeper things. That's the basics anyway.

Correct! God has put in EVERY person since the beginning, the innate sense that God exists.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God gives us just enough inherent knowledge to start seeking Him out. From there, anyone willing to listen to God and learn from Him will be sent to Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So in summary, EVERYONE since the beginning of creation, has the innate knowledge that God exists and has the ability to come to God to listen and learn from Him. ANYONE, if they are willing. It is these people that God the Father sends to His Son, Jesus.

 

[GWH]

How about Plan B I think you mentioned - came to Christ later in life in various ways?

Plan B-Z would be for those with more interesting testimonies to share,
but I'm still coming to Christ in various ways including via CC.

 

[GWH]

Hmmm...without doubt the FWs must think that when God sovereignly works his will into his people that means He's forcing himself upon us. Maybe Paul forgot to add that God only works his will into his saints only if they have his permission...

No, MFWists think that the sovereign God chooses to work lovingly through souls/saints who seek to learn and to cooperate with His HS.
Paul implies this truth every time he urges perseverance.

 

[studier]

Correct! God has put in EVERY person since the beginning, the innate sense that God exists.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

God gives us just enough inherent knowledge to start seeking Him out. From there, anyone willing to listen to God and learn from Him will be sent to Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So in summary, EVERYONE since the beginning of creation, has the innate knowledge that God exists and has the ability to come to God to listen and learn from Him. ANYONE, if they are willing. It is these people that God the Father sends to His Son, Jesus.

Seems pretty simple, doesn't it...

 

[studier]

Or......It can be describing ALL of us in and of ourselves. As if God never came after us. If God left us alone........NONE would seek Him.

But He did not leave us to ourselves. He came after us.....EACH and EVERYONE of us. He reconciled each and every person who has ever lived to Himself.

He sent the helper to convict us of sin. Because they do not believe in Him.

So yes, as the natural man( as if he left us be) we would never seek God. None would......But He convicted THE WORLD of sin.

Understood.

The word is used to speak of our current physical body in Adam.1 compared to our future resurrection body. It's used in 1Cor2 to speak in part of not having vs. having the Spirit. The biggest tell IMO is it's used in Jude and may be a word that is just one way of describing the type of people that entire document is discussing. IOW, extreme.

The bottom line for me is the close context 1Cor2 is discussing advanced teaching that not even baby Christians can understand - wisdom being spoken only to the mature - so, it's not the basic Gospel. To apply it to the basic and foundational part of the Gospel is to rip it from context.

 

[studier]

Absolutley no context of election is about God arbitrarily choosing certain men for salvation

Repeating.

 

[HeIsHere]

Are you sure there are only 2 kinds of people in the world?

Even in 1Cor2-3 where the discussion began, there are at least 3 types of people discussed.

In the context of my saying "normal unbeliever" I was proposing a difference from the psuchikos-natural man (unbeliever) of 1Cor2:14 who looks to be completely committed to the soul and to the kosmos.

Perhaps the true way to understand this is to see that Paul is speaking about the parts within a man.
Their entire interpretation is completely flawed.

 

[HeIsHere]

All well and good, but do you agree with the Calvinistic teaching re: Election? Or do you have a different view?

Your language re: election and your reference to 1Cor2 seems in line with Calvinism.

The most misapplied verse in this discussion.

 

[studier]

And the "abnormal" believer is completely committed to what precisely?

And what are the "3 types of people" discussed in 1Cor 2-3? Are all these types also unbelievers or is it a mixed bag?

Abnormal believer or unbeliever? Again, my made-up phrase was stated in the context of an unbeliever who is not completely committed to the soul and the kosmos. The word is psuchikos based in psuchē which means soul and which also speaks of earthly life.

My intention was to simply describe an unbeliever who is not too far gone, i.e. one with a seared conscience, one with a hardened heart who has rejected having knowledge of God, trending extreme in immorality and not coming back, etc...

See here for more and consider its use in Jude.

Also, I forgot to mention to @Kroogz that the word is also used in James3:15 in a 3-word series describing the opposite of wisdom from above. Those 3 words are "earthly, psuchikos, demonic." So, again, its usage seems to be pretty extreme.

And what are the "3 types of people" discussed in 1Cor 2-3? Are all these types also unbelievers or is it a mixed bag?

At minimum from context:

1. The spiritual Christian - the mature believer who can understand advanced spiritual teaching
2. The fleshly Christian - the infant/baby believer who cannot understand advanced spiritual teaching,
3. The soulish (psuchikos) man - the man of [completely committed to] the spirit of the kosmos who cannot understand advanced spiritual teaching (and who likely rejects/rejected the basic Gospel even when backed up by demonstrations of the Spirit - the power of/from God)
4. I'd also include the inference to the unbeliever who did come to believe the basic Gospel proclaimed by Paul and backed up by demonstrations of the Spirit - the power of/from God.

It seems to me Paul is speaking of a pretty extensive range of the kinds of people among humanity.

 

[HeIsHere]

Different interpretations postdated 1Cor2.

No straight answer multiple posts, so I'll consider you in agreement with or in similarity to the interpretations of the calvinistic traditions re: election and the natural man.

BTW, I don't like the isms and ists either, but after 11,000 posts, they're kind of a simple way of cutting to the chase.

FWIW, I think that tradition and others here that agree with it re: 1Cor2 are misinterpreting 1Cor1-3 at minimum which in context is speaking about deeper things of God for the glory of His Children that are advanced teaching for Christians. IOW, the natural man can understand the Gospel because God has provisioned it with sufficient power and with His Spirit to make it understandable. The natural man and the baby Christian (as yet) cannot understand these deeper things. That's the basics anyway.

Agree, Paul did not have the Gospel message (the reality and implications of the life, death and burial, resurrection of Christ Jesus) in view, he is writing to believers.

People can understand and comprehend the information, it is a matter of being persuaded of its personal application.

But Calvinist would disagree with Billy Graham I guess, since they cannot share a personal Gospel, only the historical events and then they deny people can understand or comprehend even the historical events.
A serious gong show!

A major flaw in this system every thing in scripture is about how people cannot believe/be persuaded and how God makes it happen by regenerating first, once again a preset lens that interferes with understanding everything the Gospel writers were addressing.

It seems rather fitting and ironic that it is actually them who are employing the "natural understanding" rather than the spiritual.

 

[studier]

Perhaps the true way to understand this is to see that Paul is speaking about the parts within a man.
Their entire interpretation is completely flawed.

I think the parts within a man concept is really dealt with Paul in Rom7-8 which I also touched on in this discussion. And I think many are really missing the language re: how Paul is saying what the flesh does in regard to the mind, the inner man, and the will of man.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think the parts within a man concept is really dealt with Paul in Rom7-8 which I also touched on in this discussion. And I think many are really missing the language re: how Paul is saying what the flesh does in regard to the mind, the inner man, and the will of man.

Exactly, Paul is not speaking about two distinct groups.
That is another flawed interpretation, but they need that to make the system work.

 

[studier]

Agree, Paul did not have the Gospel message (the reality and implications of the life, death and burial, resurrection of Christ Jesus) in view, he is writing to believers.

People can understand and comprehend the information, it is a matter of being persuaded of its personal application.

But Calvinist would disagree with Billy Graham I guess, since they cannot share a personal Gospel, only the historical events and then they deny people can understand or comprehend even the historical events.
A serious gong show!

A major flaw in this system every thing in scripture is about how people cannot believe/be persuaded and how God makes it happen by regenerating first, once again a preset lens that interferes with understanding everything the Gospel writers were addressing.

It seems rather fitting and ironic that it is actually them who are employing the "natural understanding" rather than the spiritual.

There are most certainly some very interesting twists going on. I've said it elsewhere recently, but it seems to me the dominoes fall if the T in TULIP gets straightened out, and 1Cor2-3 is a good part of the fix.

 

[HeIsHere]

There are most certainly some very interesting twists going on. I've said it elsewhere recently, but it seems to me the dominoes fall if the T in TULIP gets straightened out, and 1Cor2-3 is a good part of the fix.

Yes agree, good luck, lol!!