Understanding God’s election

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I know how. God came to me, changed my mind and heart, and thus my will was changed. Instead of being opposed to the gospel, I received it with gladness and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Admittingly, I didn't understand all that had happened until much later. At the time I simply knew that my life had been forever changed. I knew I was forgiven and wanted to know all I could about this God who saved me.

Did you feel His changing your mind was an irresistible force that made you follow Him? Other people were able to resist Him though and refused His free gift. How come God couldn't change their mind and heart?

At the heart of it, we should accept that God gave us free will and should accept the responsibility that comes with it, including having made the decision to follow Jesus and get saved.

Because when we all stand before God, all the people who didn't make it will try to blame God, but God will show them what it is in their heart and mind and they'll see it was their decision to make. God will rightfully not feel at all like He was at fault for them going to hell.

There's also a reason why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell - it's because all the people sent there regret the free-will decisions and choices they made.


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[Cameron143]

Not what I said so why are you asking?

Are you going to propose an argument from silence or are you going to point to Scripture to show how many people heard Peter?



Understood. Do you agree we're not told how many heard Peter? Is it worth spending a bunch of time on?

It really doesn't matter to me. People can choose to accept or reject, and I see the issues as being in men.

I agree it is not an important point, but it strains credulity, in my opinion, that only 3000 heard.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The Midianites might disagree.

Did you ever wonder why God had them destroyed? God isn't mean. There's always a good reason why He determines judgement on people.


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[studier]

If you find an inconsistency in my logic, please point it out. You simply saying you don't believe what Romans 8:7-8 is saying doesn't refute what I shared.

IMO I've provided Scripture that refutes it being taken as some absolute inability in men to ever obey or have faith. In the past, but not with you, I've made the same arguments about Paul's Rom3 list which he's drawing from parts of Israel's history, but not all of it.

As best I can tell you're saying the solution is men are saved or circumcised of heart before they can believe.

 

[Cameron143]

Before they believe?

Certainly. If God doesn't act, how can a carnal man come to faith. This has been my argument all along.

Did Lazarus walk out of the tomb still dead, or was he first made alive and then responded?

 

[studier]

I agree it is not an important point, but it strains credulity, in my opinion, that only 3000 heard.

Yet argument from silence...

 

[studier]

Certainly. If God doesn't act, how can a carnal man come to faith. This has been my argument all along.

Did Lazarus walk out of the tomb still dead, or was he first made alive and then responded?

You realize this is part of why some think you're a Calvinist, correct? I'm not calling you one, BTW.

I see your logic, but I think it's based upon an erroneous read of Rom8 and Rom3. Do you also put 1Cor2:14 into the mix as Calvinists do?

You pointed to John3. What specifically do you think says God provides the new birth (correct me if I'm misstating what you said) before a man can believe?

Am I correct that you're saying this goes all the way back through history and applies to men pre-Christ? Back to Abel per Heb11?

 

[studier]

Did Lazarus walk out of the tomb still dead, or was he first made alive and then responded?

Getting tired. Missed this.

I don't think physically dead Lazarus being commanded back to physical life applies to men living under sin and death being capable of hearing & learning & choosing to believe.

 

[Cameron143]

Did you feel His changing your mind was an irresistible force that made you follow Him? Other people were able to resist Him though and refused His free gift. How come God couldn't change their mind and heart?

At the heart of it, we should accept that God gave us free will and should accept the responsibility that comes with it, including having made the decision to follow Jesus and get saved.

Because when we all stand before God, all the people who didn't make it will try to blame God, but God will show them what it is in their heart and mind and they'll see it was their decision to make. God will rightfully not feel at all like He was at fault for them going to hell.

There's also a reason why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell - it's because all the people sent there regret the free-will decisions and choices they made.


🚃

There is much there that I don't agree with. When God came to me and worked upon my mind and heart, He allowed for me not to resist. I believe it is the disposition of fallen man to always resist otherwise. The actions of God made it so I was not at enmity with Him, made me subject to the law so I could obey Him, and also able to please Him. None of these things are true of the carnal man per Romans 8:7-8.
I do believe people have freedom of choice, but not an unfettered free will. That is, we are all subject to our nature. Just as an ant does ant things, and a lion does lion things, fallen man does fallen man things. These things are attested to throughout scripture...see Romans 8:7-8, Romans 3: 10 and following. And I believe in salvation we are given a new nature that frees us to do what we could not previously do.
Hell itself doesn't change people. The rich man who lifted up his eyes in hell being in torments didn't repent or stop seeing Lazarus as a servant. If people blame God on earth, I see no reason for them to change in hell.

 

[Cameron143]

Getting tired. Missed this.

I don't think physically dead Lazarus being commanded back to physical life applies to men living under sin and death being capable of hearing & learning & choosing to believe.

The scripture is written for our examples. Surely you recognize from Romans 1 that physical things teach us concerning spiritual matters. The physical miracle was most certainly done to teach concerning spiritual reality. And of course Lazarus was first given life before he could respond. It is no different spiritually. Spiritual life must be given before spiritual response is possible. So from a previous post, I have no problem with 1 Corinthians 2:14 in this regard.

 

[studier]

Yes, men were saved before the cross. Their faith was in anticipation of a future Messiah...John 8:56.

So, God saved Abraham before he could believe?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There is much there that I don't agree with. When God came to me and worked upon my mind and heart, He allowed for me not to resist. I believe it is the disposition of fallen man to always resist otherwise. The actions of God made it so I was not at enmity with Him, made me subject to the law so I could obey Him, and also able to please Him. None of these things are true of the carnal man per Romans 8:7-8.
I do believe people have freedom of choice, but not an unfettered free will. That is, we are all subject to our nature. Just as an ant does ant things, and a lion does lion things, fallen man does fallen man things. These things are attested to throughout scripture...see Romans 8:7-8, Romans 3: 10 and following. And I believe in salvation we are given a new nature that frees us to do what we could not previously do.
Hell itself doesn't change people. The rich man who lifted up his eyes in hell being in torments didn't repent or stop seeing Lazarus as a servant. If people blame God on earth, I see no reason for them to change in hell.

You REALLY don't want any responsibility at all for your choosing to follow God. You're saying He saved you, but chooses not to save other people and not make them capable of coming to Him. IT'S THE SAME THING THAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE.

The Holy Spirit would never teach you that. So who or what are you learning all that from? Whatever it is you believe is not the true gospel and not the real Jesus who doesn't offer salvation to everyone.


🚃

 

[Cameron143]

You realize this is part of why some think you're a Calvinist, correct? I'm not calling you one, BTW.

I see your logic, but I think it's based upon an erroneous read of Rom8 and Rom3. Do you also put 1Cor2:14 into the mix as Calvinists do?

You pointed to John3. What specifically do you think says God provides the new birth (correct me if I'm misstating what you said) before a man can believe?

Am I correct that you're saying this goes all the way back through history and applies to men pre-Christ? Back to Abel per Heb11?

I realize why some people would say such, but the very same people who claim they come to their beliefs independently even though they correspond to what people in history have stated believe I somehow couldn't do the same. They use "ists" and "isms" because they lazy and superior.
To be born again is to be born spiritually. One becomes a partaker of the divine nature and is baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. It's likely what you believe happens subsequent to salvation in your understanding.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Did you ever wonder why God had them destroyed? God isn't mean. There's always a good reason why He determines judgement on people.


🚃

What good reason for,ripping babies out of the womb,or bashing them to death on rocks?

 

[Cameron143]

So, God saved Abraham before he could believe?

God birthed him spiritually before he believed. At what precise moment faith becomes salvation isn't clear to me except that salvation is by grace through faith. The language of scripture doesn't pinpoint exactly.

 

[studier]

The scripture is written for our examples. Surely you recognize from Romans 1 that physical things teach us concerning spiritual matters. The physical miracle was most certainly done to teach concerning spiritual reality. And of course Lazarus was first given life before he could respond. It is no different spiritually. Spiritual life must be given before spiritual response is possible. So from a previous post, I have no problem with 1 Corinthians 2:14 in this regard.

And we can apply the principle wrongly.
I recognize from Rom1 that all men know God exists and from His creation they know certain things about Him.
Lazarus was raised to show Jesus was the resurrection and the life. Again, I don't see this as an example to show rebirth before faith.
Again, I don't know your previous posts, so I'll take this to mean you view 1Cor2:14 as Calvinists do.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

What good reason for,ripping babies out of the womb,or bashing them to death on rocks?

Read up on Midianites. Why are you siding with and defending God's enemies????


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[studier]

I realize why some people would say such, but the very same people who claim they come to their beliefs independently even though they correspond to what people in history have stated believe I somehow couldn't do the same. They use "ists" and "isms" because they lazy and superior.

Understood.

So, do you agree with Calvinists that God elects to save some? Or do you move away from speaking of it as election and just say that God sovereignly chooses to birth anew certain people so they can believe?

Is there any difference?

 

[studier]

God birthed him spiritually before he believed. At what precise moment faith becomes salvation isn't clear to me except that salvation is by grace through faith. The language of scripture doesn't pinpoint exactly.

Fits your logic.

 

[Cameron143]

You REALLY don't want any responsibility at all for your choosing to follow God. You're saying He saved you, but chooses not to save other people and not make them capable of coming to Him. IT'S THE SAME THING THAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE.

The Holy Spirit would never teach you that. So who or what are you learning all that from? Whatever it is you believe is not the true gospel and not the real Jesus who doesn't offer salvation to everyone.


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Do you have scripture that states God offers salvation to all? Did God offer salvation to the Assyrians? Until the gospel reached the Americas, do you have any record that salvation was offered to anyone here? Has God brought the gospel to everyone in China or the Middle East even today? If not, how do you say God offers salvation to everyone?

Perhaps, just perhaps, the truth is that God hasn't offered salvation to everyone. Just saying so doesn't make it so.

I can appreciate that one would like to see everyone saved. I share this sentiment. But that doesn't mean reality is to be ignored. And scripture itself suggests your comment is false. God clearly states that He decides whom He will have mercy upon and whom He will not. How do you ignore what scripture plainly states?