Can you be baptized by an unbelieving person?

[DJT_47]

No, Jesus' commandment is JN 13:34-35, so the command in MT 28:19 must be a hangover from OT days.
Don't get me wrong, because I affirm water baptism, but as a symbolic act, not a sacrament.

It is symbolic as it symbolizes Jesus burial and resurrection as Romans 6 teaches us, as well as 1 Peter 3, but whether you term it to be symbolic or otherwise does not matter and is not the point; it's required of the believer. There's nothing magic in the water. It's acknowledging as a believer, that it's a requirement and being obedient which is imperative.

 

[GWH]

It is symbolic as it symbolizes Jesus burial and resurrection as Romans 6 teaches us, as well as 1 Peter 3, but whether you term it to be symbolic or otherwise does not matter and is not the point; it's required of the believer. There's nothing magic in the water. It's acknowledging as a believer, that it's a requirement and being obedient which is imperative.

If it is required, then it is a sacrament.
I think Jesus meant to command it in the way Paul expressed the instruction regarding the Last Supper:
""Do this, whenever you drink it", in remembrance of me" (1CR 11:25).

 

[DJT_47]

If it is required, then it is a sacrament.
I think Jesus meant to command it in the way Paul expressed the instruction regarding the Last Supper:
""Do this, whenever you drink it", in remembrance of me" (1CR 11:25).

Term it what you will, but it is a commandment that the believer must be obedient to. Symbolic, yes, as aforementioned.

 

[Leastofall]

I think it says you cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the spirit, does that mean if it's necessary you can be baptized by an unbelieving person? Let's say the only option for a church was one with people who are unbelieving, can you be baptized by someone there?

The answer is no. You must be baptized by a believer. Jesus give the believer the authority to baptise.

 

[GWH]

Term it what you will, but it is a commandment that the believer must be obedient to. Symbolic, yes, as aforementioned.

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). Paul referred to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers like Abraham, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). From the advent of Christ until the Second Coming is the third or New Covenant dispensation and relationship with God (RM 3:21-26, GL 3:24-25, HB 7:18-10:1).

Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9) The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35).

Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united if baptism with water is viewed as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS. The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be baptized by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member. Water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.

Instead of commanding water baptism for salvation, Paul said in one place (RM 10:9-10) that a convert should confess “with your mouth” in order to be saved, even though elsewhere (EPH 2:8-9) he taught that one is saved by faith. Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer will want to (but we cannot say “must”) perform as soon as possible following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. MT 3:13-15, ACTS 2:38).

Although Paul did not command water baptism, he administered it (in ACTS 16:33, 18:8, 19:5 & 1CR 1:114-16) even though he said Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1CR 1:17). IOW, Paul’s focus was on preaching (spirit baptism) and he probably left the water baptizing to his assistants.

 

[hornetguy]

This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

You conveniently skip over the precise way the Spirit enters our life.... Just as Peter taught at Pentecost, when Jesus' church was founded.... "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

You are picking individual scriptures to fit your narrative. Take all scriptures in context, recognizing who they were spoken to. This is not difficult, but you are doing your best to confuse it...

 

[GWH]

You conveniently skip over the precise way the Spirit enters our life.... Just as Peter taught at Pentecost, when Jesus' church was founded.... "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

You are picking individual scriptures to fit your narrative. Take all scriptures in context, recognizing who they were spoken to. This is not difficult, but you are doing your best to confuse it...

No, I address the begged questions: On what basis were/are pre-Gospel sinners saved? How did God relate with them?

Your constructive answer?

 

[hornetguy]

On what basis were/are pre-Gospel sinners saved?

Hmmm.... I never saw this question, either explicit or begged.
Either way, your answer still misses the mark.
Minimizing or negating the imperative for baptism by cherry picking a scripture, then saying that it "suggests" that we get the Spirit some other way than baptism is disingenuous, at best.

Scripture is so clear on this, that the only answer is that you have your agenda, your pre-conceived notion that you are willing to twist or overlook scripture to "prove" your point.

 

[DJT_47]

No, I address the begged questions: On what basis were/are pre-Gospel sinners saved? How did God relate with them?

Your constructive answer?

What do you mean by pre-gospel? Prior to the death of Christ but while he was yet alive during his earthly ministry? Or after his death but prior to the writing of the gospels, or ???

 

[GWH]

Hmmm.... I never saw this question, either explicit or begged.
Either way, your answer still misses the mark.
Minimizing or negating the imperative for baptism by cherry picking a scripture, then saying that it "suggests" that we get the Spirit some other way than baptism is disingenuous, at best.

Scripture is so clear on this, that the only answer is that you have your agenda, your pre-conceived notion that you are willing to twist or overlook scripture to "prove" your point.

Pre-conceived heck! I have spent 50+ years searching the Scriptures and trying to harmonize them.
If I am wrong, then I am mistaken, but NOT due to preconceived notions.
I dare say I am the only person on CC who says the following:

"Having established three unavoidable or axiomatic beliefs, my intent now is to discuss the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs extant in the world diverge. Only the first student or one with a tabula rasa (blank slate)—like a newly sentient child—actually starts exploring reality from the beginning. (A pre-sentient infant in the womb is completely agnostic or without knowledge of every ism.) Nevertheless, in Part II the present study “begins” in the midst of this writer’s life and learning by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice/lack of bias)."

 

[p_rehbein]

"decipher"

Thanks for adding another jewel to my crown..... Love to collect the "x" responses. Lets me know I'm spot on with my comment(s)

 

[decipher]

.... in that story, he was not...
look at John 3....

22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.

23 At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism. 24 (This was before John was thrown into prison.) 25 A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew[i] over ceremonial cleansing. 26 So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.

I suppose you would say the same thing about Jesus..... who instructed his disciples to do exactly that....
It was simply because Jesus was Jewish....

View attachment 274433

He instructed his disciples to preach (teach) all nations.

 

[Beckworth]

At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). Paul referred to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13)



We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers like Abraham, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). From the advent of Christ until the Second Coming is the third or New Covenant dispensation and relationship with God (RM 3:21-26, GL 3:24-25, HB 7:18-10:1).

Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9) The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35).

Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are united if baptism with water is viewed as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the HS. The details for this work are vague, but the mode of immersion best portrays a Believer’s spiritual union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection to eternal life (CL 2:12, RM 6:4). As a practical matter, a new Believer normally would be baptized by the local congregation of the catholic (worldwide) church in which he/she will want to participate as an acknowledged member. Water baptism symbolizes spiritual baptism.

Instead of commanding water baptism for salvation, Paul said in one place (RM 10:9-10) that a convert should confess “with your mouth” in order to be saved, even though elsewhere (EPH 2:8-9) he taught that one is saved by faith. Both outward confession and water baptism may be seen as works manifesting love for God that every new Believer will want to (but we cannot say “must”) perform as soon as possible following his/her decision to have saving faith (cf. MT 3:13-15, ACTS 2:38).

Although Paul did not command water baptism, he administered it (in ACTS 16:33, 18:8, 19:5 & 1CR 1:114-16) even though he said Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1CR 1:17). IOW, Paul’s focus was on preaching (spirit baptism) and he probably left the water baptizing to his assistants.

There is no scripture that says we are saved ( United with God by the Spirit) at the point of repentance. Or that the Holy Spirit does that when we repent. Or that “repentance” puts us into Christ’s universal church. None. Saul of Tarsus proves this. Acts 9, Saul BELIEVED when he saw and talked to Jesus on the road to Damascus. He spent 3 days REPENTING with fasting and prayer; but he still had his sins. He was NOT yet forgiven of his sins; I know this because when, after 3 days of fasting and praying, Ananias told him to “ Arise, be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.. if Saul was saved at the moment of repentance, then why did Ananias say he still had his sins?? This is plain—not hard to understand.

If salvation comes at the point of repentance, then why did Peter tell the Jews in Acts 2 to repent AND BE BAPTIZED …for the forgiveness of sins?? Shouldn’t he have just said “repent” … for the forgiveness of sins?

And most important of all, why didn’t JESUS mention “repentance” when he said “BELIEF” and “BAPTISM”” saves us in Mark 16:16?? Did Jesus lie when He said that ? Because that is NOT the same thing that you are teaching?? What you are saying is not at all what Jesus said. Did Jesus just “forget”to” mention that we are saved at the moment of repentance? I don’t think so.

There are 2 baptisms in the New Testament, but the point of Eph. 4:4 that says there is only one, means that only one saves us. Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament was NEVER for the purpose of salvation. Let me say that again— Holy Spirit baptism never was used to SAVE people. Holy Spirit baptism was only poured out on people twice in the New Testament (excluding the baptism of Jesus.) once in Acts 2 and again in Acts 10. People were given the “GIFT” of the Spirit many times, but that is not to be confused with miraculous baptism by the Spirit. The “gift” of the Spirit was given by the laying on hands
Of the apostles. That is the way they got it. The apostles got it in Acts 2 by a miraculous outpouring. They then could “give” it to others by laying their hands on them. 1Corinthians 14 speaks of many “gifts” of the Spirit—speaking in tongues, prophecy, revelation, miracles, healing, These served an important purpose in the early church because there was no written Bible for them to go to to find out what God wanted. But 1 Cor. 13 says that when the “perfect” word of God (Jas. 1:25) is complete, then all of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit will cease. There will be no need for them anymore.

The miraculous out pouring of the Spirit in Acts 2 and Acts 10 was used as a “sign” that God approved what the apostles were saying (Acts 2) and that The gospel and salvation was also for the gentiles and not only the Jews. Proven by Acts 11:18.

People in Acts 8 were “saved” first ( verse 12) and THEN they received the “Spirit””. In verses 14-15. Verse 16 specifically says that they were baptized in water first, THEN, “ The apostles Peter and John laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Verse 12 specificly says these people believed and were baptized—exactly what Jesus said will save people in Mark 16:16. So these people were saved in verse 12 and then received the Holy Spirit in verse 16. There is no way these people were saved by Holy Spirit baptism. Even in Acts 10, after the Holy Spirit was poured out on Cornelius, Peter then COMMANDED them to be baptised in water because as Peter said in Acts 2, baptism is for the remission of sins. ( verse 38).

Faith, repentance, confession and baptism are ALL said to save a person in different places in the New Testament—Holy Spirit baptism is never said to save anyone in the New Testament.