Pre or post Adam

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#1
Some believe Jesus came like Adam before he fell. = pre Adam
Some believe Jesus came like Adam after he fell. = post Adam.

We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.

But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#2
Some believe Jesus came like Adam before he fell. = pre Adam
Some believe Jesus came like Adam after he fell. = post Adam.

We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.

But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?

I think we're mischaracterizing the particular "sense" in which Christ was like Adam.

.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#3

1 Corinthians 15 verse 20 and 1 Corinthians 15 verse 45 and 1 Corinthians 15 verse 22 Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit. In Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#4

Romans 5 verses 18-19 ~ Just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man (Jesus Christ) the many will be made righteous.
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
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#5
Some believe Jesus came like Adam before he fell. = pre Adam
Some believe Jesus came like Adam after he fell. = post Adam.

We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.

But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?
I don't think we need to presume when the Bible tells us the truth.
Jesus was God in the flesh. He was born of a virgin, his father was Holy Spirit,John 1:18, so he was not brought into this world as corruptible seed in the way other mortals are born.

1 John 3:5
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Jesus-Christ,-Sinlessness
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
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#6
But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?
maybe this will help you understand

Jesus was the last Adam or 2nd Adam -------

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-second-Adam.html


The Apostle Paul tells us in his first letter to the church in Corinth, “The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

Paul is here pointing out the difference between two kinds of bodies, i.e., the natural and the spiritual. Genesis 2:7 speaks of the first man, Adam, becoming a living person. Adam was made from the dust of the ground and given the breath of life from God. Every human being since that time shares the same characteristics. However, the last Adam or the “second Adam”—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. Just as Adam was the first of the human race, so Christ is the first of those who will be raised from the dead to eternal life. Because Christ rose from the dead, He is “a life-giving spirit” who entered into a new form of existence. He is the source of the spiritual life that will result in believers' resurrection. Christ’s new glorified human body now suits His new, glorified, spiritual life—just as Adam’s human body was suitable to his natural life. When believers are resurrected, God will give them transformed, eternal bodies suited to eternal life.

Paul tells us in verse 46 that the natural came first and after that the spiritual. People have natural life first; that is, they are born into this earth and live here. Only from there do they then obtain spiritual life. Paul is telling us that the natural man, Adam, came first on this earth and was made from the dust of the earth. While it is true that Christ has existed from eternity past, He is here called the second man or second Adam because He came from heaven to earth many years after Adam. Christ came as a human baby with a body like all other humans, but He did not originate from the dust of the earth as had Adam. He “came from heaven.”

Then Paul goes on: “As was the earthly man [Adam], so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven [Christ], so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:48-49). Because all humanity is bound up with Adam, so every human being has an earthly body just like Adam’s. Earthly bodies are fitted for life on this earth, yet they are limited by death, disease, and weakness because of sin which we’ve seen was first brought into the world by Adam.

However, the good news is that believers can know with certainty that their heavenly bodies will be just like Christ’s—imperishable, eternal, glorious, and filled with power. At this time, all are like Adam; one day, all believers will be like Christ (Philippians 3:21). The Apostle John wrote to the believers, “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,346
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#7
Some believe Jesus came like Adam before he fell. = pre Adam
Some believe Jesus came like Adam after he fell. = post Adam.

We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.

But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?
The key to finding the answer is to be found in why Jesus could have no human father.

.......
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,870
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#8
We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.
Your Quote here ---
We can not fully understand the incarnation of Jesus


I personally think it is laid out in Scripture quite well and very understandable ---with a little research ---
Jesus is the Word and the Father spoke the Word and Created all things ---so Jesus existed in the Father as the Word and when the Father Spoke Jesus Created all things ------So the Son was in the Father from the beginning -----without Jesus The Father would not have been able to Create things and Jesus who is the Word needed His Father who was the one who could Speak out the Word -----

AI

Scriptures like Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 emphasize that Jesus, as the Word, is the agent through whom God the Father created all things, and without whom nothing was made.

Colossians 1:16:
"For in him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him".

John 1:3:"Through him all things were made, and without him was not any thing made that was made".

John 1:1:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

I say -----So God the Father Spoke the Word who is Jesus to Mary and Mary accepted the Word who is Jesus and God The Father overshadowed Mary and she became impregnated by the Holy Spirit ----

-So what does this word overshadow mean

Strong's Lexicon
episkiazó: To overshadow

to overshadow: From a vaporous cloud that casts a shadow the word is transferred to a shining cloud surrounding and enveloping persons with brightness: ,

of the Holy Spirit exerting creative energy upon the womb of the virgin Mary and impregnating it (a use of the word which seems to have been drawn from the familiar O. T. idea of a cloud as symbolizing the immediate presence and power of God):

This part of your Quote here
or comprehend the nature of God, so please do not presume things.[/QUOTE]

I again think that we can Know the Attributes ---Nature of God as it is certainly laid out in Scripture -and Jesus is our example to know the Nature of God in my view -------Jesus said if you seen me you have seen the Father -----

I say====== we don't know the Ways of God or the Thoughts of God

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attributes_of_God_in_Christianity

The attributes of God are specific characteristics of God discussed in Christian theology.

These include
omniscience (the ability to know everything),
omnipotence (the ability to do anything),
and omnipresence (the ability to be present everywhere), which emphasize the infinite and transcendent nature of God.

Additionally, God is often described as
eternal (without beginning or end)
and immutable (unchangeable), indicating a constant and perfect existence.

Other attributes include
holiness (moral purity),
rectitude (righteousness),
justice (fairness), love (compassionate care for creation),
mercy (forgiveness and kindness), and goodness (benevolent will toward others).

God is also described as sovereign over creation.

These attributes provide a framework for understanding how God is perceived to interact with the world and humanity
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
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#9
But did Jesus come in the likeness of man with a nature that was fallen or a nature that was unfallen?
"Fallen nature" is nothing but a "Theological LIE" created by "Theologians" for their own religious purposes!!! Man's NATURE never changed. Adam had a HUMAN NATURE that NEVER CHANGED, and so did Jesus, you, and me!!!!

Since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, then obviously HE had LUSTS and STRONG PERSONAL DESIRES just like Adam, and us.

The difference is that JESUS, while being TEMPTED like us, never let HIS LUST CONCEIVE and become SINFUL ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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#10
"Fallen nature" is nothing but a "Theological LIE" created by "Theologians" for their own religious purposes!!! Man's NATURE never changed. Adam had a HUMAN NATURE that NEVER CHANGED, and so did Jesus, you, and me!!!!

Since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, then obviously HE had LUSTS and STRONG PERSONAL DESIRES just like Adam, and us.

The difference is that JESUS, while being TEMPTED like us, never let HIS LUST CONCEIVE and become SINFUL ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15)
Pretty proud of yourself... ain't ya?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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#12
Genesis 3:15 prophesized the birth of Christ in a unique way.
For it ran counter to the thinking of the ancients, who always viewed the offspring as being of the man's seed.


And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15​

Note! Adam's seed was left out of the equation for the Messiah.
Only the woman's ovum is mentioned.

Why? The woman's ovum does not carry the defect that passes along the sin nature found in the body.

In contrast to the woman's ovum...
When Adam fell, he was transformed into the image of fallen angels, and the sperm transferred that trait in copulation.

That is why Jesus could have no human father.

grace andf peace ..............
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,833
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#13
"Fallen nature" is nothing but a "Theological LIE" created by "Theologians" for their own religious purposes!!! Man's NATURE never changed. Adam had a HUMAN NATURE that NEVER CHANGED, and so did Jesus, you, and me!!!!

Since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, then obviously HE had LUSTS and STRONG PERSONAL DESIRES just like Adam, and us.

The difference is that JESUS, while being TEMPTED like us, never let HIS LUST CONCEIVE and become SINFUL ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15)
So what is your belief about Jesus?
Was he divine, or was he just an ordinary man with great willpower?

.
.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
63,364
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#14
"Fallen nature" is nothing but a "Theological LIE" created by "Theologians" for their own religious purposes!!!
Man's NATURE never changed. Adam had a HUMAN NATURE that NEVER CHANGED, and so did Jesus, you, and me!!!!

Since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, then obviously
HE had LUSTS and STRONG PERSONAL DESIRES just like Adam, and us.

The difference is that JESUS, while being TEMPTED like us, never let
HIS LUST CONCEIVE and become SINFUL ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15)
Was Adam a child of wrath before he disobeyed God and all creation became bound to futility?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#15
So what is your belief about Jesus?
Was he divine, or was he just an ordinary man with great willpower?

.
.
Good question.

I know That Jesus Is Divine.
And that Jesus became a man. A Human man.

So both divine and a man.

He did not use divine power because then He would not be an example that we can copy. He called on the Father for power which we can also do. He never stopped being divine but became a man like us.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Likeness of sinful flesh.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,272
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#16
"Fallen nature" is nothing but a "Theological LIE" created by "Theologians" for their own religious purposes!!! Man's NATURE never changed. Adam had a HUMAN NATURE that NEVER CHANGED, and so did Jesus, you, and me!!!!

Since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, then obviously HE had LUSTS and STRONG PERSONAL DESIRES just like Adam, and us.

The difference is that JESUS, while being TEMPTED like us, never let HIS LUST CONCEIVE and become SINFUL ACTIONS. (James 1:14,15)
Correct, because the key aspect of human nature that is like the holy God is God-consciousness and thus moral free will or conscience.

The Holy Spirit probably implanted a divinely created human ovum in Mary (HB 2:14), which was very good or untainted genetically (GN 1:31), and Jesus had to become perfect spiritually by learning not to succumb to temptations (HB 2:17-18, 4:15, 5:7-10).
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,187
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#17
Fallen nature does not = sinner.

Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners.

Jesus came like us, the same as us, but was without sin and never allowed sin to grow.

He was tempted in all points like us.

It is not a sin to be tempted.

It is not a sin to have a nature that is fallen and flesh that is tempted because of inherited tendency.

Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Likeness of men
Men = not just pre fall Adam but plural = mankind in general.

Likeness = similarities. Same. Not differences.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,187
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#18
The Holy Spirit probably implanted a divinely created human ovum in Mary
Presumption
We are not told the finer details.

Rom 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,272
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#19
Presumption
We are not told the finer details.

Rom 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
True, but Maryolatry is false.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#20
Jas 1:13-15
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

JESUS WAS TEMPTED.

WHEN WE CONCIEVE = SIN.
When lust is conceived it brings sin.

The difference between Jesus and us is not the nature but Jesus never got drawn away and never conceived.
Jesus never sinned. We do sin...

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Jesus is one with us .... one in our likeness.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

SAME, the same flesh and blood.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Not like post Adam but the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:17-18
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Made like NOT DIFFERENT, made like his brethren.