Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

Oh boy...you got me there. But then again, who is it that ultimately controls the growth of what has been planted and watered? Does God NEED the help of the sons of men to grow anything on this earth? Is this a synergistic operation?

God needing something and God wanting something are two different things. Does a father need his son to help him in his garden? No. He could do everything himself. But maybe there is some relationship building and educational and maturing effected that leads the father to want to work with his son, and his son to work with him.

 

[Rufus]

Paul does claim to be the father or certain believers.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul seems to me to be taking some credit there.

Paul patting himself on the back, heh? Which means he would be contradicting himself.

 

[Rufus]

And this is a main value of these discussions. We put our ideas about God and scripture in this crucible and see how they hold up under the heat of critical evaluation. Not all the criticism is valid. But where it is, we are able to adjust our perspective to be more realistic. and produce in us more Christ-like character. In the process we are providing others with alternative perspectives to compare with their present ideas, and they are able to adjust their perspectives accordingly to produce in them a more Christ-like character. If we don't see ourselves becoming more Christ-like in character through this process, something is wrong with the way we are participating in this forum.

In other words, do exactly what the Bereans didn't do after Paul presented them with "ideas about God and scripture".

 

[Rufus]

God needing something and God wanting something are two different things. Does a father need his son to help him in his garden? No. He could do everything himself. But maybe there is some relationship building and educational and maturing effected that leads the father to want to work with his son, and his son to work with him.

Maybe a father would need his son if papa isn't up to the task himself for one reason or another. Anymore great analogies?

 

[Rufus]

Correct me if my memory is wrong, but I think we already concluded our discussion
with me making you a heavenly bet that I am right, but if not then start with MT 7:7 & 1TM 2:3-4.
(If I lose the bet, then I will need to amend the website yet again! :^)

That "heavenly bet" was made by you several weeks ago. It was last week that I sent up at least a dozen cites that teach that God hates, loathes or abhors sinners. You never addressed those, even though you said you would. Do you need those cites again?

 

[Rufus]

I seriously don't think our Lord is offended by such language and thinking. Some of the fellowship language ends up in translation speaking of being His partners.

NKJ Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains,

NKJ Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,

NKJ 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 4:14-17 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.


Also, since @Rufus is for some consistently odd reason countering you with 1Cor9:22-23 which he's explaining away as hyperbole, we can just add to it with:

NK Rom11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.


And then more hyperbole from Christ's Apostle who so personalized his ministry for our Lord:

16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:16 NKJ)

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began (Rom. 16:25 NKJ)

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, (2 Tim. 2:8 NKJ)


Imagine the arrogance of a man who understands God so well and his by grace ministry in Christ in Spirit living under grace that he personalizes his living, mutually abiding relationship and work together with God to such a degree. It rather seems to me that we can take all of the instruction, allow Him to make it our own, and know what to say and when in the context of a discussion.

So, now we have God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Paul saving people. So then by extension, all Christians are mankind's saviors. Or did Paul consider himself a "savior" by virtue of the great privilege God bestowed upon him to preach the divine message of salvation. In the sense that he was a faithful preacher of the gospel of salvation, it could be said that he "saved" people. But certainly not in the sense of this text, of which I'm mindful:

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
NIV

I'll let you and/or PT critically analyze whose name that could possibly be. Perhaps you guys should modify your understanding of Paul the Savior of men.

 

[studier]

So, now we have God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Paul saving people. So then by extension, all Christians are mankind's saviors. Or did Paul consider himself a "savior" by virtue of the great privilege God bestowed upon him to preach the divine message of salvation. In the sense that he was a faithful preacher of the gospel of salvation, it could be said that he "saved" people. But certainly not in the sense of this text, of which I'm mindful:

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
NIV

I'll let you and/or PT critically analyze whose name that could possibly be. Perhaps you guys should modify your understanding of Paul the Savior of men.

Learn the basics of letting Scripture speak for itself and working together with Him to understand it all. We're simply pointing out the counterbalances of your laser focus on T and hatred for mankind and all the errors stemming from your distorted presupposition.

 

[Rufus]

I seriously don't think our Lord is offended by such language and thinking. Some of the fellowship language ends up in translation speaking of being His partners.

NKJ Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains,

NKJ Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,

NKJ 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 4:14-17 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.


Also, since @Rufus is for some consistently odd reason countering you with 1Cor9:22-23 which he's explaining away as hyperbole, we can just add to it with:

NK Rom11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.


And then more hyperbole from Christ's Apostle who so personalized his ministry for our Lord:

16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:16 NKJ)

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began (Rom. 16:25 NKJ)

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, (2 Tim. 2:8 NKJ)


Imagine the arrogance of a man who understands God so well and his by grace ministry in Christ in Spirit living under grace that he personalizes his living, mutually abiding relationship and work together with God to such a degree. It rather seems to me that we can take all of the instruction, allow Him to make it our own, and know what to say and when in the context of a discussion.

So the apostles used terms of loving endearment to the ones to whom they ministered...and this means what exactly.

And why do you underline the phrase "my gospel" in 2Tim 2:8? Did Paul invent his own version of the gospel, or did he receive the gospel he preached from someone else -- from an infinitely higher authority?

Gal 1:11-12
11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
NIV

Have you ever considered using that mighty powerful volition of yours to repent of your idolatry?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

You said:
Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature

Augustine is the one who "discovered" that all of descendants of Adam "inherited" SIN NATURE. His starting point was infant baptism which was commonly practiced at that time. However, in the scriptures, baptism was associated with repentance and the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). How what possible sins could an infant have and how could they repent? Despite this, the Nicene Creed said “We acknowledge one baptism unto remission of sins.” Also, the Apostle Peter had written: 21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also— not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God— through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21). Being a "Doctor of the Catholic Church" it was up to Augustine to resolve this major theological inconsistency.

When he read Romans 5:12 he thought he had found his answer. Since Augustine spoke only Latin the Bible he used was not the original Greek text but a corrupted (pre-Vulgate) Latin version which rendered the last phrase “in quo omnes peccaverunt” “in whom [in Adam] all sinned” So, when Adam sinned everyone sinned IN HIM. This included even INFANTS. This is why infants were baptized - not to dedicate them to the Lord or to remit their own PERSONAL sin (since they were innocent) but to remit ADAM'S ORIGINAL sin.

In the original language, the key phrase in Romans 5:12 was the Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho which literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or “in that” Therefore, when Paul was using the phrase as an EXPLANATION for why people sin. The Eastern Orthodox never accepted Augustines explanation for sin. To them, the Fall damaged mankind spiritually but did
confer guilt. The Bible itself says that infants are innocent and that God does not punish children for the sins of their ancestors.

 

[studier]

So the apostles used terms of loving endearment to the ones to whom they ministered...and this means what exactly.

And why do you underline the phrase "my gospel" in 2Tim 2:8? Did Paul invent his own version of the gospel, or did he receive the gospel he preached from someone else -- from an infinitely higher authority?

Gal 1:11-12
11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
NIV

Have you ever considered using that mighty powerful volition of yours to repent of your idolatry?

If you understood reverence and the deeply personal relationship God's Children have with Him, then you might get to the point where you begin to understand why some of our exemplars spoke so personally of God's business and family, which is also theirs.

You're simply so far gone that you think you're actually making some of us aware of verses like the above. There is some idolatry going on here and it's exposed in how far one will sink to support what's called Calvinism.

 

[PaulThomson]

Maybe a father would need his son if papa isn't up to the task himself for one reason or another. Anymore great analogies?

Do you think your analogy fits God as our Father calling us to work with Him in His field?

 

[Aaron56]

I seriously don't think our Lord is offended by such language and thinking. Some of the fellowship language ends up in translation speaking of being His partners.

NKJ Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains,

NKJ Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,

NKJ 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 4:14-17 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.


Also, since @Rufus is for some consistently odd reason countering you with 1Cor9:22-23 which he's explaining away as hyperbole, we can just add to it with:

NK Rom11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.


And then more hyperbole from Christ's Apostle who so personalized his ministry for our Lord:

16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:16 NKJ)

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began (Rom. 16:25 NKJ)

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, (2 Tim. 2:8 NKJ)


Imagine the arrogance of a man who understands God so well and his by grace ministry in Christ in Spirit living under grace that he personalizes his living, mutually abiding relationship and work together with God to such a degree. It rather seems to me that we can take all of the instruction, allow Him to make it our own, and know what to say and when in the context of a discussion.

This kind of language (fathers and sons) is rare in the church today. But God is restoring it to those who understand its implications.

After Rome's influence, succession was based on title. Rome structured the church after its own government.
Christ established succession based upon relationships; fathers and sons... where sons were neither male or female but were comprised of all believers in Christ.

When a father gives birth to a son it is always to his faith, never of his spirit. God is the Father of our spirits. Fathers, in Christ, are fathers of our faith. Typically, we call these people disciples but they are also sons of a father of their faith.

These are foundational things that have been abandoned largely because of anti-Roman church bias and some ignorance.

 

[PaulThomson]

In other words, do exactly what the Bereans didn't do after Paul presented them with "ideas about God and scripture".

Actually it's exactly what they did do... and without the assistance of a calvinist decoder ring to change the word in texts to words not in texts.

 

[PaulThomson]

Paul patting himself on the back, heh? Which means he would be contradicting himself.

Why would Paul's words entail him patting himself on the back? You may be projecting your pride onto the apostle.

 

[Rufus]

Learn the basics of letting Scripture speak for itself and working together with Him to understand it all. We're simply pointing out the counterbalances of your laser focus on T and hatred for mankind and all the errors stemming from your distorted presupposition.

Oh...now you're confusing me with God Almighty himself? It is He who hates sinners, don't you know?

Lev 26:30
30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you.
NASB

Deut 25:16
16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
NIV

Job 12:21-22
21 "He pours contempt on nobles,
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness,
And brings the deep darkness into light.
NASB

Ps 5:5-6
5 The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes;
Thou dost hate all who do iniquity.
6 Thou dost destroy those who speak falsehood;
The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
NASB

Ps 11:5
5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
NASB

Ps 73:18-20
18 Surely Thou dost set them in slippery places;
Thou dost cast them down to destruction.
19 How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20 Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when aroused,
Thou wilt despise their form.
NASB

Ps 95:10-11
10 "For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 "Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
NASB

Ps 106:40
40 Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people,
And He abhorred His inheritance.
NASB

Ps 107:40
40 He pours contempt upon princes,
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
NASB

Prov 3:32
32 For the crooked man is an abomination to the Lord;
But He is intimate with the upright.
NASB

Prov 6:16-19
6 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
NIV

Prov 11:20
20 The LORD detests men of perverse heart
but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.
NIV

Jer 12:8
8 My inheritance has become to me
like a lion in the forest.
She roars at me;
therefore I hate her.
NIV

Jer 16:5
5 For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD
NIV

Lam 2:6-7
6 And He has violently treated His tabernacle like a garden booth;
He has destroyed His appointed meeting place;
The Lord has caused to be forgotten
The appointed feast and sabbath in Zion,
And He has despised king and priest
In the indignation of His anger.
7 The Lord has rejected His altar,
NASB

Hos 9:15
5 All their evil is at Gilgal;
Indeed, I came to hate them there!
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of My house!
I will love them no more;
All their princes are rebels.
NASB

Nah 1:14
4 The Lord has issued a command concerning you:
"Your name will no longer be perpetuated.
I will cut off idol and image
From the house of your gods.
I will prepare your grave,
For you are contemptible."
NASB

Dan 12:2
2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
NASB

Rom 9:13
13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NASB

P.S. All the above was inspired by the God above who is Love. So stuff all the above passages into your hash pipe and puff on it and then maybe you and PT can put your two hat racks together and "critically analyze" the texts to see how they all fit into the woven fabric of all scripture.

PPS. Hey, GWH, are you paying attention?

 

[Rufus]

Actually it's exactly what they did do... and without the assistance of a calvinist decoder ring to change the word in texts to words not in texts.

You don't read to swell either, do you?

Acts 17:11
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
NIV

Unlike you, they relied on the authoritative Word of God to test Paul's gospel message and not on their finite, fallible critical thinking skills. They rightfully compared scripture with scripture.

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't read to swell either, do you?

Acts 17:11
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
NIV

Unlike you, they relied on the authoritative Word of God to test Paul's gospel message and not on their finite, fallible critical thinking skills. They rightfully compared scripture with scripture.

Actually, they applied their their finite, fallible critical thinking skills to the Bible, examining it to see if what Paul said was in there was indeed in there. God assisted them in their genuine seeking, and they were able to confirm scripture said what Paul claimed God said.

Examined is anakrinontes:

1. examine or judge
   1. to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
      1. specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
      2. to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
   2. to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing)

 

[Rufus]

Learn the basics of letting Scripture speak for itself and working together with Him to understand it all. We're simply pointing out the counterbalances of your laser focus on T and hatred for mankind and all the errors stemming from your distorted presupposition.

Since when do you let scripture speak for itself!? You're always twisting, perverting or manipulating the Word so that you can exalt the volition of men, the volition of men, the volition of men -- which is your idol! You remind me of apostate Israel who did the same thing but with the temple.

Jer 7:4-8
4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, "This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.
NIV

This describes you to T -- good pun intended,.

 

[Rufus]

Actually, they applied their their finite, fallible critical thinking skills to the Bible, examining it to see if what Paul said was in there was indeed in there. God assisted them in their genuine seeking, and they were able to confirm scripture said what Paul claimed God said.

Examined is anakrinontes:

1. examine or judge
   1. to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
      1. specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
      2. to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
   2. to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing)

Yes, but they examined the scriptures and did not rely ultimately on their finite, fallible thinking abilities. Jesus did not teach that man lives by his critical thinking skills in analyzing the Word.

 

[studier]

Oh...now you're confusing me with God Almighty himself? It is He who hates sinners, don't you know?

Lev 26:30
30 'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols; for My soul shall abhor you.
NASB

Deut 25:16
16 For the LORD your God detests anyone who does these things, anyone who deals dishonestly.
NIV

Job 12:21-22
21 "He pours contempt on nobles,
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness,
And brings the deep darkness into light.
NASB

Ps 5:5-6
5 The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes;
Thou dost hate all who do iniquity.
6 Thou dost destroy those who speak falsehood;
The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
NASB

Ps 11:5
5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
NASB

Ps 73:18-20
18 Surely Thou dost set them in slippery places;
Thou dost cast them down to destruction.
19 How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20 Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when aroused,
Thou wilt despise their form.
NASB

Ps 95:10-11
10 "For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 "Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest."
NASB

Ps 106:40
40 Therefore the anger of the Lord was kindled against His people,
And He abhorred His inheritance.
NASB

Ps 107:40
40 He pours contempt upon princes,
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
NASB

Prov 3:32
32 For the crooked man is an abomination to the Lord;
But He is intimate with the upright.
NASB

Prov 6:16-19
6 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
NIV

Prov 11:20
20 The LORD detests men of perverse heart
but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.
NIV

Jer 12:8
8 My inheritance has become to me
like a lion in the forest.
She roars at me;
therefore I hate her.
NIV

Jer 16:5
5 For this is what the LORD says: "Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people," declares the LORD
NIV

Lam 2:6-7
6 And He has violently treated His tabernacle like a garden booth;
He has destroyed His appointed meeting place;
The Lord has caused to be forgotten
The appointed feast and sabbath in Zion,
And He has despised king and priest
In the indignation of His anger.
7 The Lord has rejected His altar,
NASB

Hos 9:15
5 All their evil is at Gilgal;
Indeed, I came to hate them there!
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of My house!
I will love them no more;
All their princes are rebels.
NASB

Nah 1:14
4 The Lord has issued a command concerning you:
"Your name will no longer be perpetuated.
I will cut off idol and image
From the house of your gods.
I will prepare your grave,
For you are contemptible."
NASB

Dan 12:2
2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
NASB

Rom 9:13
13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NASB

P.S. All the above was inspired by the God above who is Love. So stuff all the above passages into your hash pipe and puff on it and then maybe you and PT can put your two hat racks together and "critically analyze" the texts to see how they all fit into the woven fabric of all scripture.

PPS. Hey, GWH, are you paying attention?

I'll bet if you were asked to go through all of these in context and even look at a few of them closely, you'd be unable to see how they are not all-inclusive. Then if you were to acknowledge this to be the case, your answer would simply be, of course, they are the elect!