The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[EddieM]

All the language variables through the centuries of translation and versions,that's an interesting stance.

 

[EddieM]

All the language variables through the centuries of translation and versions,that's an interesting stance.

i don't find translations and versions very helpful. I have the CT (Critical Text) Greek New Testament. Are you telling me that you
use English translations to study the Bible?

 

[bluejean_bible]

All the language variables through the centuries of translation and versions,that's an interesting stance.

i don't find translations and versions very helpful. I have the CT (Critical Text) Greek New Testament. Are you telling me that you
use English translations to study the Bible?

Are you proficient in Koine Greek?

 

[EddieM]

All the language variables through the centuries of translation and versions,that's an interesting stance.

i don't find translations and versions very helpful. I have the CT (Critical Text) Greek New Testament. Are you telling me that you
use English translations to study the New Testament?

 

[EddieM]

Are you proficient in Koine Greek?
Yes

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This may not be the best day for this. I will likely be in and out and have limited time today. We'll see. But I wanted to let you know I read and appreciate the post.

I will ask again, in case you forgot

How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do. or as you just said, it depends on US CONTINUING? or ABIDING? or not losing FAITH?

I will add to my post to you since you have mentioned it, that you have to Co-Operate with God. or work on your salvation (all of you)


is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.

Let me ask you one question, if I may; Do you believe that men choose to believe in or to reject God and/or Jesus Christ?

I believe again what the word says.

for God so loved the world. He gave his only son, that whoever (in that world) believe in him, will NEVER PERISH. and they will LIVE FOREVER.

Just like then Mose4s lifted the Serpent. Those who looked in faith lived. those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already. If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate/ If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

ESV 1st Cor. 11:19
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

I have no problem with factions, they must exist.

It is the constant name calling that is the problem.

So many here have called the anti-OSAS group as work-salvationist. This is troubling and out of line.

On the other hand, I do not see the OSAS groups being accused of pushing a license to sin.

Its not an OSAS issue per say

You either believe in the promises of God based on being saved by Grace through faith.

Or you believe salvation must be earned by things you do, things you do not do. or living up to some standard.

People make it an OSAS issue, I believe it comes from an anti calvinist slant.. instead of looking at the word.. they are trying to appose another belief system

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

OSAS,for any who actually read the Bible here rather than copy and paste verses they think give that impression, KNOW that it is a matter of the covenant Jesus died to bring to this world.

Those who don't know the Bible as intended by Holy Spirit wrongly insist,repeatedly,that eternal irrevocable salvation and life in Christ,OSAS, means we can make a habit of sinning.

That's false .
And Jesus tells us why that is.

So the ridiculous anti-gospel slur that insists we have a license to sin being we are saved once and eternally is, in my view, a confession of the unbelievers . Who never actually read the word so to know the words they espouse against eternal irrevocable salvation are known to be false.

As john said

whoever sins has never seen God. whoever is born of God can not live in sin.

there is no argument that those who9 know God can even think of living in sin, its impossible..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are you serious?

You have never seen those who believe in OSAS have never been accused of using it as a license to sin?

they never see things like this

 

[studier]

is this not all dependent on you? Help me make it make sense. because it does not.

Of course, it's not all dependent on me or on any of us. Why the fixation? Apart from Him we Christians can do nothing. He is providing His capabilities so we Christians can desire and work what pleases Him. Now work these truths out - in union with Him we do something - with His capabilities He provides we desire and work. These are just 2 examples of such things.

@JimiSurvivor has been showing you a lot about commands issued to the volition of Christians, and about verb tenses. As Christians we have a lot to be doing under grace.

Now, you dodged my question. I asked it only to get a base to better answer your questions, which IMO I have done many times in many ways. So, do you believe that men choose to believe in or to reject God and/or Jesus Christ?

 

[GWH]

Are you proficient in Koine Greek?
Yes

Those who translate from the original texts are like those who separate metal from ore,
and those who harmonize the meaning of Scripture are like those who make metal into something useful,
and those who apply what Scripture teaches to their lives are like those use gold for the good of humanity.

 

[studier]

Those who translate from the original texts are like those who separate metal from ore,
and those who harmonize the meaning of Scripture are like those who make metal into something useful,
and those who apply what Scripture teaches to their lives are like those use gold for the good of humanity.

And those who do all of the above?

 

[GWH]

And those who do all of the above?

are multi-taskers/triply-gifted.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

[QUOTE="Everlasting-Grace, post: 5471998, member: 312779" I am confused. can you help me?

How can one claim they are not depending on themselves IF they claim that the final salvation is dependent on what they do or do not do

You mean it must be COMPLETELY GOD's decision or COMPLETELY OURS? You do not really believe this false dichotom, do you?

Can you please show me in my post where I even hinted anything like what you just asked? Why would you even ask such a thing?

However, to answer your question, we do not depend on ourselves to perform the actual work of being born again. That power comes from the activity of the Holy Spirit acting in response to our faith in the gospel:
5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the WASHING OF THE NEW BIRTH and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,… (Titus 3:5-6)]

Once we believe and are born again by the Spirit,

Agree 100% up to here. (except for the odd question you asked me earlier. which I still do not understand)

Christ tells us that we are to ABIDE in that relationship. The word abide
is the Greek verb "μένω" (menó) which primarily means to remain in or stay in a given place, state, or relationship. It conveys a sense of persistence and continuity, often implying a steadfastness or enduring presence. In the New Testament, this word was frequently used to describe a believer's relationship with Christ, which emphasized a continual, abiding connection with Him. This refutes your claim that continuance in faith is not a requirement for remaining in Him
https://biblehub.com/greek/3306.htm.

So we have to do this to stay saved?

So you basically just failed to do what I asked. I asked how this can not be us keeping ourself saved?

That the above meaning is indeed what Jesus and John were attempting to convey is shown by the fact that the word REMAIN (in Christ), is in the PRESENT TENSE IMPERATIVE MOOD. Present tense imperative verbs indicate something we must CONTINUALLY DO. Thus when Jesus said abide in me He was not saying merely to participate in His life for a period of time but to CONTINUE to do so. Therefore, once the Holy Spirit grafts us into the Vine we are commanded to STAY there - which requires our ongoing consent and participation.

So again, How can you say it is not you keeping yourself saved or earning your salvation by abiding of your own power?

The verb abide is a derivative of menó (μένω) which is "equivalent to not to depart, not to leave, but to continue to be present. When coupled with the genitive of a person it means to maintain unbroken fellowship with one, ot to "adhere to his party," If it were IMPOSSIBLE for us to ever depart from Christ it would have been unnecessary to COMMAND us not to. Commands are not descriptions about what must happen. They are statements about what will happen IF we choose obey or disobey. Thus, for the imperative verb to be coherent in this passage, it must be possible to either stay with or depart from Christ.[/QUOTE]

So I am left with the same questions.

If you have to do something. how can you say you are not trying to earn your own salvation?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Whoa, slow down. I and my best friend were raised as OSAS Baptists, but I saw the light and now affirm moral free will,
whereas he has remained confused about that doctrine as far as I know, but we both still practice the same moral teachings.

So, logically OSAS either serves as a license to sin or else it makes a person deny the sinner was ever saved,
but practically many folks do not think about such issues and would think those who debate on CC are nutso!

How many times do we have to say the words of John.

Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD.

Does it get any simpler then this? Free will is left in tact. But we can not continue in sin. not does God give us a license to sin.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Oh, sorry about that.

Make that addressee: Too Whom It May Apply
(Dontcha think I made a good point though? :^)

no.

not even close

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Of course, it's not all dependent on me or on any of us. Why the fixation?

Because if what you just said was true. you could never lose salvation. nor would you ever even think it is possible

Apart from Him we Christians can do nothing. He is providing His capabilities so we Christians can desire and work what pleases Him. Now work these truths out - in union with Him we do something - with His capabilities He provides we desire and work. These are just 2 examples of such things.

@JimiSurvivor has been showing you a lot about commands issued to the volition of Christians, and about verb tenses. As Christians we have a lot to be doing under grace.

All USER @JimiSurvivor has been showing me is he believes he has to maintain his own salvation by doing something. Same things as you have been showing me.

Now, you dodged my question. I asked it only to get a base to better answer your questions, which IMO I have done many times in many ways. So, do you believe that men choose to believe in or to reject God and/or Jesus Christ?

Actually we do get into this alot.

1. I ask you a question

2. You dodge the question or do not answer the question

3 You ask me a question which really has no bearing on what we are discussing. or I answer the Question (Like I did this time) and you act as if I did not.

I believe again what the word says.

for God so loved the world. He gave his only son, that whoever (in that world) believe in him, will NEVER PERISH. and they will LIVE FOREVER.

Just like then Moses lifted the Serpent. Those who looked in faith lived. those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already. If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate/ If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.

I do not know. how else should I take other than you did not read my answer. I even used the words you used.

is there a problem?

 

[studier]

are multi-taskers/triply-gifted.

Actually 1 & 2 must go together. There are many phrases that can be translated several different ways and about the only way to determine which is accurate is to get direction from other Scripture - to harmonize.

 

[studier]

Everlasting-Grace said:
I believe again what the word says.

for God so loved the world. He gave his only son, that whoever (in that world) believe in him, will NEVER PERISH. and they will LIVE FOREVER.

Just like then Moses lifted the Serpent. Those who looked in faith lived. those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already. If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate/ If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.

I do not know. how else should I take other than you did not read my answer. I even used the words you used.

is there a problem?

Your quotes and your highlights of Scripture:

that whoever (in that world) believe in him​

​

Those who looked in faith lived​

​

those who chose to not look because of unbelief, well they were condemned already​

​

If they did not repent. and look. they would suffer their fate​

​

If they chose to repent and believe and looked. They would not die.​

There seems to be a lot of things men need to choose and do in order to be saved:

1. They must [hear and learn to] believe
2. They must look in faith
3. They must repent and look
4. They must choose to repent and believe and look.

So, men must [hear and learn] and chose to repent and believe and look to be saved? And once they do all of this and are "saved", they don't have to do anything - or where do you go from here?

From this I glean that you do believe men choose to believe or to reject God and/or Christ, which is all I asked you to clarify so I wouldn't assume what you think.

I have extensive exposure to some who would consider you to be a works salvationist based simply upon your belief (assuming I understand you correctly) that unbelievers choose to believe. And I'm not speaking of Calvinists.

 

[sevoldoG]

Whoever sins has NEVER SEEN OR KNOWN GOD.

This is a true statement. Because of Adam we are born into sin. And so the saying goes “no there is not ONE righteous, no not one.” And “for we ALL fall short of the glory of God.
buuuut, when you are born again, you are imputed with God’s righteousness. You are no longer a sinner. At the same time (like the example of Lazareth) you become spiritually alive, and you now know God, but better yet, are known by Him. You are sinless, a saint, and a few other things God claims you to be in Christ. For if God be for us, who can be against us.
AND THAT IS WHY JOHN MAKES THAT CLAIM. Everyone on this planet sins everyday. Except those in Christ. There’s no other way to rectify this saying. If there is Id like to know it.
Thanks, and I apologize if I seem too straightforward, but it drops my jaw that people get something else from it. Every human being will sin daily until the day they die. Except those in Christ. Why? Because God said so.