Imputed Righteousness???

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Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Adding words to the Bible does not make them part of the revelation unless they are inherent in the original revealed text. The Greek text does not say "spiritual death spread to all men", nor does it say this was so "by means of imputation because all sinned". It will take more than someone fantasy paraphrase to persuade me away from what scripture says. If you are willing to look at the Greek and consider what it says, let me know.
I am afraid you are a little rigid in your use of language. If as Christians we cannot better communicate a teaching in “down to earth” speech, then it will push those that “don’t talk like us” away. What I have posted is not some random attempt to prove a point, but is only an excerpt from a very serious study involving “the whole council of God” as revealed through Scripture. I will provide the rest if you feel it will help you to better see the points being made.
 

GWH

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Adding words to the Bible does not make them part of the revelation unless they are inherent in the original revealed text. The Greek text does not say "spiritual death spread to all men", nor does it say this was so "by means of imputation because all sinned". It will take more than someone fantasy paraphrase to persuade me away from what scripture says. If you are willing to look at the Greek and consider what it says, let me know.
You seem to ignore the fact that professional translators always consider the MEANING that was intended to be conveyed by the literal words in a text, so you cannot stop with what is said but must go beyond that with what is meant.
(Life is rarely simple :^)
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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4. There are four real imputations.
The first is Adam's original sin to the sin nature. Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as through one man [Adam]sin entered into the world, and [spiritual] death spread to all men [by means of imputation] because all sinned [when Adam sinned]. Romans 5:14:
My pastor taught ... the Greek of Rom 5:12 states that all sinned in a single point in time.

Which leads translators to the deduction that when Adam sinned, all sinned.

We do not find that nuance laid out in mere English translations.
We are only told the conclusion, without explanation.

grace and peace .........
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Adding words to the Bible does not make them part of the revelation unless they are inherent in the original revealed text. The Greek text does not say "spiritual death spread to all men", nor does it say this was so "by means of imputation because all sinned". It will take more than someone fantasy paraphrase to persuade me away from what scripture says. If you are willing to look at the Greek and consider what it says, let me know.
How do you translate & interpret Rom5:12, especially the final clause?
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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My pastor taught ... the Greek of Rom 5:12 states that all sinned in a single point in time.

Which leads translators to the deduction that when Adam sinned, all sinned.

We do not find that nuance laid out in mere English translations.
We are only told the conclusion, without explanation.

grace and peace .........
I suppose there are many ways to say the same thing. As a writer I lean heavily on thesauruses, or thesauri.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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You seem to ignore the fact that professional translators always consider the MEANING that was intended to be conveyed by the literal words in a text, so you cannot stop with what is said but must go beyond that with what is meant.
(Life is rarely simple :^)
But isn't this part of the problem for us all? It's all interpretation, from the range of meanings of words including not only definitions, but also Greek parsing and clause structures and down to the smallest of words like prepositions and then the range of meanings of prepositional phrases, etc...

It's well known that translations and lexical tools contain interpretational bias. IMO there are/were a few in this thread who are/were working at these levels. I for one am thankful they are because no matter what level one chooses to work at, it seems to me that we still have much to unravel.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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I suppose there are many ways to say the same thing. As a writer I lean heavily on thesauruses, or thesauri.
The problem is that not all the translational choices carry the same meaning. It's easiest for me to let the NET Bible translators partially explain the issues re: just the last prepositional phrase in Rom5:12 (the underlining is mine):

14 tn The translation of the phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ e*ph hoÒ) has been heavily debated. For a discussion of all the possibilities, see C. E. B. Cranfield, "On Some of the Problems in the Interpretation of Romans 5.12," SJT 22 (1969): 324-41. Only a few of the major options can be mentioned here: (1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, "death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned." (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning "death spread to all people with the result that all sinned." (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: "death spread to all people because all sinned."​
 

Blade

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Nov 19, 2019
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I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Funny thing is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it say we are credited with the Righteousness of Christ
Selah
Selah? Debate think on because you don't understand?

Cute well the way you phrase it is not written so anything else? Why as Father Abraham righteous? Not sure how anyone can miss we are in right standing with God because we simply believe in trust in Jesus Christ. Its what He did so it is "to count," "to reckon," or "to set to someone's account". How else are we righteous?

Sorry not to offend but this is just playing with words. There is so much we say and believe that its not exactly written the way we believe. I am no one but it was God.. His holy Spirit that one day when I really wanted to leave all this because my sin convicted my heart 24/7. Just as I was leaving He asked me "what is righteousness?" Well its right standing with GOD I said. He asked me "how do you get righteousness?" Go for it tell GOD how we as man born in sin get righteousness. Its that simple trust that faith in Yeshua/Jesus Christ .. HE did what we never could. He loves this world more then any one knows.

After I said its by believing in Jesus.. something happened and I cried and cried. It was like being blind then you could see. I was raised it has to be written so I went searching in my bible. No internet then no tv no computer. I being no one I found it. Its all over the NT. Sorry one would have to be blind not to see what He did for all.

Unless this was just playing with words. With out Christ no one gets in. That's what matters... so think on that
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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The problem is that not all the translational choices carry the same meaning. It's easiest for me to let the NET Bible translators partially explain the issues re: just the last prepositional phrase in Rom5:12 (the underlining is mine):

14 tn The translation of the phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ e*ph hoÒ) has been heavily debated. For a discussion of all the possibilities, see C. E. B. Cranfield, "On Some of the Problems in the Interpretation of Romans 5.12," SJT 22 (1969): 324-41. Only a few of the major options can be mentioned here: (1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, "death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned." (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning "death spread to all people with the result that all sinned." (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: "death spread to all people because all sinned."​
Indeed. I too use the NET version along with a plethora of other tools when digging for the correct meaning. I have often spent weeks and months on a doctrine in order to explain it in laymen’s terms that can be applied to everyday life. We are commanded to study and we are each responsible for how we handle His words. Paul was a great example for tailoring his message for his audience.
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Funny thing is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it say we are credited with the Righteousness of Christ
Selah
Yes it does, in fact. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." The word "imputes" is not used but that is what that verse means.

Faith is the key to receiving the gift of righteousness. This is a common theme throughout the New Testament and began with Abraham. It is logical. We have no righteousness of our own. The Bible calls our righteousness "filthy rags". It's even more disgusting than the word "filthy" conveys. If we have no righteousness and we cannot be righteous, then how else can we be made righteous? And since Jesus is the righteousness of God, the only way we can be considered righteous is if we are given the righteousness of Christ.

Modern translations tend to use the word "credited" instead of "imputed". KJV uses "imputed" in Romans 4:24.

A simple search with something like Bible Hub would enable you to find these things out for yourself. I used to spend hours in study using concordances and a Bible dictionary. It is far easier using Bible Hub.
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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christianlife.au
I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Funny thing is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it say we are credited with the Righteousness of Christ
Selah
Yes it does, in fact. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." The word "imputes" is not used but that is what that verse means.

Faith is the key to receiving the gift of righteousness. This is a common theme throughout the New Testament and began with Abraham. It is logical. We have no righteousness of our own. The Bible calls our righteousness "filthy rags". It's even more disgusting than the word "filthy" conveys. If we have no righteousness and we cannot be righteous, then how else can we be made righteous? And since Jesus is the righteousness of God, the only way we can be considered righteous is if we are given the righteousness of Christ.

Modern translations tend to use the word "credited" instead of "imputed". KJV uses "imputed" in Romans 4:24.

A simple search with something like Bible Hub would enable you to find these things out for yourself. I used to spend hours in study using concordances and a Bible dictionary. It is far easier using Bible Hub.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Yes, and bias is unavoidable in science too, which we should try to eliminate. and which is why I say in Lesson 1 of our website:

Having established three unavoidable or axiomatic [unbiasable?] beliefs, my intent now is to discuss the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs [and biases?] extant in the world diverge. Only the first student or one with a tabula rasa (blank[/unbiased?] slate)—like a newly sentient child—actually starts exploring reality from the beginning [unbiased?]. (A pre-sentient infant in the womb is completely agnostic or without knowledge of every ism) [and thus unbiased?] Nevertheless, in Part II the present study “begins” in the midst of this writer’s life and learning by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice/unbias).
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,255
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Yes it does, in fact. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." The word "imputes" is not used but that is what that verse means.

Faith is the key to receiving the gift of righteousness. This is a common theme throughout the New Testament and began with Abraham. It is logical. We have no righteousness of our own. The Bible calls our righteousness "filthy rags". It's even more disgusting than the word "filthy" conveys. If we have no righteousness and we cannot be righteous, then how else can we be made righteous? And since Jesus is the righteousness of God, the only way we can be considered righteous is if we are given the righteousness of Christ.

Modern translations tend to use the word "credited" instead of "imputed". KJV uses "imputed" in Romans 4:24.

A simple search with something like Bible Hub would enable you to find these things out for yourself. I used to spend hours in study using concordances and a Bible dictionary. It is far easier using Bible Hub.
I wonder whether Bible Hub knows what it has taken me 50+ years to find out?
Would google know what is on our website?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Funny thing is, NOWHERE in Scripture does it say we are credited with the Righteousness of Christ
Selah
It says that Abraham was credited righteousness because of his faith.
Abraham was OT.

In contrast to the OT, we have been made to be a new creation in Christ.
For we have the Holy Spirit taking up residence in our bodies.

Abraham had no such thing.

His righteousness was credited to him.
That was because his experience needed to wait for the atonement on the Cross to take place.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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Oregon
I hear and read many times about the Christian having the imputed righteousness of Christ.

One of Webster's definitions of "impute" is to credit, or ascribe, (something)
to a person or a cause, in other words: attribute, i.e. assign, accredit,
account, associate, chalk up, and/or attach.


The thing is: God has set the bar too high for many of us. In point of fact, in
order to avoid retribution, He requires sinless perfection.


"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)

And it's not enough to produce sinless perfection some of the time, nor even
most of the time, rather, God requires everyone to be consistent, viz:
produce sinless perfection all the time because even the slightest
imperfection puts folks in jeopardy.


"He will give eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek
glory, honor and immortality" (Rom 2:7)


Jesus was very successful meeting that requirement.

"I always do what is pleasing to Him." (John 8:29)

So then, were God to delete your track record and replace it with Christ's,
that would definitely be the cat's meow. Well that would be cooking the
books for sure, but God has a way to do it that's somehow on the up and up.
_
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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It may be fun to make up new meanings for words, but that is not a wise way to approach interpreting the Bible.
You're right.

Shared by permission of Fair Use

Question: "Why does Christ's righteousness need to be imputed to us?"

Answer: We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no righteousness of our own. We are sinners by nature, and we cannot make ourselves righteous—we cannot place ourselves in right standing with God. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need His holiness before God credited to our account.

In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes our need for imputed righteousness plain. He says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This comes after Jesus had just corrected His listeners’ misunderstanding of the law. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus says that, if His hearers want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, who were the experts in the knowledge of the law.

Then, in Matthew 5:21–47, Jesus radically redefines obedience to the law from mere outward conformity, which characterized the “righteousness” of the Pharisees, to an obedience of both outward and inward conformity. Six times in this passage, He says, “You have heard that it was said . . . but I tell you.” In this way, Jesus differentiated the requirements of the law as the people had been taught from its actual requirements. Obeying the law is more than simply abstaining from murder or adultery, for example. It’s also not getting angry with your brother and not lusting in your heart. At the end of this section of the sermon, Jesus says we must “be perfect” (verse 48).

At this point, the natural response is, “But I can’t be perfect,” which is absolutely true. In another place in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus summarizes the Law of God with two commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). These commands also condemn us, because has anyone ever loved the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and loved his neighbor as himself? Everything we do, say, and think must be done, said, and thought from love for God and love for neighbor. We have never achieved that level of spirituality. We are not righteous.

Sin affects us to the very core of our being, and no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection on our own. The Bible says that all our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own attempts at goodness are simply not good enough. We need an imputed righteousness, and for that we look to Christ.

On the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself and purchased our salvation. We have “been justified by his blood” (Romans 5:9), and part of that justification is an imputation of His own righteousness. Paul puts it this way: “For our sake [God] made [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus is righteous by virtue of His very nature—He is the Son of God. By God’s grace, “through faith in Jesus Christ,” that righteousness is given “to all who believe” (Romans 3:22). That’s imputation: the giving of Christ’s righteousness to sinners.

Having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us does not mean we automatically do what is right—that will come through the process of sanctification. What it does mean is that we are positionally righteous; even though we still sin, we are forensically or legally righteous. God has credited the righteousness of Christ to our account, and He did this when He saved us. In grace, the holiness of Jesus Christ is ascribed to us. Christ “has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30).

By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be seen as sinless, as Jesus is sinless. This is amazing grace! We are not righteous in ourselves; rather, we possess Christ’s righteousness applied to our account. It is not our perfection but Christ’s that God sees when He brings us into fellowship with Himself. We are still sinners in practice, but the grace of God has declared us to have righteous standing before the law.

A wonderful illustration of Christ’s imputed righteousness is found in Jesus’ parable of the wedding banquet. Guests are invited to the king’s celebration from every street corner, and they are brought in, “the bad as well as the good” (Matthew 22:10). All the guests have something in common: they are each given a wedding garment. They are not to wear their street clothes in the banquet hall but are to be dressed in the garment of the king’s providing. They are covered in a gracious gift. In a similar way, we, as guests invited into God’s house, have been given the pure white robe of Christ’s righteousness. We receive this gift of God’s grace by faith.
 

bluejean_bible

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Feb 15, 2025
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Adding words to the Bible does not make them part of the revelation unless they are inherent in the original revealed text. The Greek text does not say "spiritual death spread to all men", nor does it say this was so "by means of imputation because all sinned". It will take more than someone fantasy paraphrase to persuade me away from what scripture says. If you are willing to look at the Greek and consider what it says, let me know.
Your skepticism lacks one valid foundation stone when you talk about the "original revealed texts".
Those are what are referred to as the autographs. The original revealed texts.

They no longer exist. Or, at the very least,are not available.

Your argument is therefore contentious. And wrong.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Sipsey
Yes, and I have already covered both RM 4 and PHP 3:7-11, so it would be more productive for you to reply to what Sipsey posted and I will watch.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And I be found (καὶ εὑρεθῶ) in him (ἐν αὐτῷ), not having (μὴ ἔχων) mine own righteousness, the one out of law, (ἐμὴν δικαιοσύνην τὴν ἐκ νόμου ) but (ἀλλὰ) the [righteousness] through Christ's faith/faithfulness ( τὴν διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ), the righteousness out of God (τὴν ἐκ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην) based upon the faith ( ἐπὶ τῇ πίστει):
Your skepticism lacks one valid foundation stone when you talk about the "original revealed texts".
Those are what are referred to as the autographs. The original revealed texts.

They no longer exist. Or, at the very least,are not available.

Your argument is therefore contentious. And wrong.
We have the manuscripts that are copies of the received text, and upon which it is clear the earliest translations of scripture into other languages were based. I trust that God was able to preserve His word, despite the fact that many may have created spurious versions of His word to deceive if possible even the very elect.