The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[JimiSurvivor]

Well study the word "if". Because you seem to need it.

If you do not study the text (which is made up of "WORDS") how do you study it at all? I thought we were supposed to rightly divide the word using the context and the original historical grammar. I think the "IFs" in the Bible are very important since most of the Bible consists of promises conditioned by that conjunction

 

[Kroogz]

Besides what I said before. The entire verse that says everyone who believes in Him should not perish is a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE of the Greek word BELIEVE. The fact that it is in the PRESENT TENSE indicates that the verse was not talking about a SINGLE PAST decision to believe but an ONGOING one. It means that we "believe and keep believing" That is not "spin" it is simply the grammatical sense of the word.

The present tense participle of Believe in this verse means that it remains true for anyone "at this time" and for anyone "in the future."

 

[Kroogz]

If you do not study the text (which is made up of "WORDS") how do you study it at all? I thought we were supposed to rightly divide the word using the context and the original historical grammar. I think the "IFs" in the Bible are very important since most of the Bible consists of promises conditioned by that conjunction

"If" is not always a conditional clause. You should know this.

"If" can also be stating the truth.

 

[studier]

Hey, never perish, no condemnation.

Spin that.

No thanks. I'm trying to unspin what others like yourself are spinning.

And, at the moment I'm enjoying watching you try to tell @JimiSurvivor that he needs to study some language issues it looks like he may understand, and you don't. Let's see you do some actual work and explain why he's wrong.

 

[studier]

We can't get to this point because you're still in the milk/salvation.

Oh, come on now... Try feeding me a little solid food of Scripture and let's see how it goes.

 

[Kroogz]

Oh, come on now... Try feeding me a little solid food of Scripture and let's see how it goes.

Good Lord!

John 3:16
Acts 16:31
John 5:24.

You and I are Eternally saved. Finished. Never perish. No condemnation. Nothing separates us from the Love of Christ. We are sealed with the same seal as the Son. We have eternal life. We have a forever advocate. He will lose none.

Heb 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

 

[Kroogz]

No thanks. I'm trying to unspin what others like yourself are spinning.

And, at the moment I'm enjoying watching you try to tell @JimiSurvivor that he needs to study some language issues it looks like he may understand, and you don't. Let's see you do some actual work and explain why he's wrong.

Yeah, I would like to see his actual work on it also.

 

[Kroogz]

No thanks. I'm trying to unspin what others like yourself are spinning.

Because you can't.

Never perish~~Means just that.

No condemnation~~Means just that.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You may need to study up on that a little. Do you understand WHY "believe" is a present tense participle? Or do you just understand that it is?

In his popular textbook "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" Greek professor, Daniel Wallace, wrote that "believes" was conjugated as a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE in John 3:16 because in the writings of John particularly FAITH indicates something ONGOING and PRESENT TENSE or "believe and keep believing." The ancient Christians did not see salvation as something that only happened in the past but something we continue in. Since you told me to study up I suppose you already knew that. As it happens, I met Dr. Wallace on several occasions and clarified this with him which does not, by itself make me right but it shows that I have done my homework.

 

[Kroogz]

Oh, come on now... Try feeding me a little solid food of Scripture and let's see how it goes.

And don't misunderstand me. I believe you would be an excellent and very advanced teacher IF you could understand the milk.

Paul, once he understood the milk and believed it, had a HUGE advantage. He could now harmonize all the scripture he learned and memorized with the milk he now understood.

 

[Kroogz]

In his popular textbook "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" Greek professor, Daniel Wallace, wrote that "believes" was conjugated as a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE in John 3:16 because in the writings of John particularly FAITH indicates something ONGOING and PRESENT TENSE or "believe and keep believing." The ancient Christians did not see salvation as something that only happened in the past but something we continue in. Since you told me to study up I suppose you already knew that. As it happens, I met Dr. Wallace on several occasions and clarified this with him which does not, by itself make me right but it shows that I have done my homework.

Acts 16:31. Believe describes something WE do. Aorist tense. One And done.

Present tense participle describes a truth for anyone READING the verse.

No matter when a person reads the verse, It is PRESENTLY true. Yesterday, tomorrow and forever. Anyone, everywhere at the present time of their reading can believe.

 

[Lamar]

What check you on about?

Could you rewrite this so I can properly respond?

 

[BillG]

Could you rewrite this so I can properly respond?

You were talking about checks as in promisery notes, ones you cash in on.

 

[Lamar]

And don't misunderstand me. I believe you would be an excellent and very advanced teacher IF you could understand the milk.

Paul, once he understood the milk and believed it, had a HUGE advantage. He could now harmonize all the scripture he learned and memorized with the milk he now understood.

I have read some of your comments.

You are certainly lactose intolerance.

 

[Lamar]

You were talking about checks as in promisery notes, ones you cash in on.

The proper way to cash a check such as a birthday check.

Is the act of cashing the check imply merit on the person given the check?

 

[FRB72]

…Therefore those that the Father has given to Jesus will not renounce their faith but can struggle and wander of the path but Jesus seeks them out and brings them back.

I attest to that cause I am of one them.

Me too…

 

[Kroogz]

I have read some of your comments.

You are certainly lactose intolerance.

Love milk. It's the addition of meat to milk that I am intolerant of.

 

[studier]

And don't misunderstand me. I believe you would be an excellent and very advanced teacher IF you could understand the milk.

Paul, once he understood the milk and believed it, had a HUGE advantage. He could now harmonize all the scripture he learned and memorized with the milk he now understood.

Why, Thank you. I have seen you agree with me on other threads and compliment my work explaining Scripture. I've enjoyed some of your bottom lining in another argument we both disagree with.

For some of us, the milk ultimately became subsumed into more detailed information that made us realize that some of the milk we were fed was spoiled or the foundation that was laid and/or the first few courses of structure left something to be desired and needed some repairs.

You do realize that your providing a few verse references and not explaining them in relation to other verses presented to you leaves something to be desired, don't you?

I'd like to see a lot more work here among us all dealing with more Scripture than just a few blasts of John3:16 which is an explanation of 3:15 both of which are speaking in the language of purpose leaving some legitimate questions re: what the end meaning or range of the subjunctive mood verbs are.

On another note, I thank the forum admin for implementing the verse lookup function.

 

[studier]

Love milk. It's the addition of meat to milk that I am intolerant of.

You're intolerant of more advanced teaching? Surely you must mean something else.

 

[studier]

In his popular textbook "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" Greek professor, Daniel Wallace, wrote that "believes" was conjugated as a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE in John 3:16 because in the writings of John particularly FAITH indicates something ONGOING and PRESENT TENSE or "believe and keep believing." The ancient Christians did not see salvation as something that only happened in the past but something we continue in. Since you told me to study up I suppose you already knew that. As it happens, I met Dr. Wallace on several occasions and clarified this with him which does not, by itself make me right but it shows that I have done my homework.

Acts 16:31. Believe describes something WE do. Aorist tense. One And done.

The Aorist tense does not describe who does the action. And it does not mean "one and done" as it is being presented here.

Present tense participle describes a truth for anyone READING the verse.

This is an oversimplification and actually not a clear or good way of describing the one of several senses the Present Tense can represent.

No matter when a person reads the verse, It is PRESENTLY true. Yesterday, tomorrow and forever. Anyone, everywhere at the present time of their reading can believe.

My dog is sneezing.

The explanation leaves something to be desired even though I think I'm able to grasp the sense of the Present tense being presented.

FWIW, I'm currently favoring the input of @JimiSurvivor and being very familiar with his referenced material, I'm looking forward to anything he may choose to add.

FWIW, I've interlineated a few hopefully constructive modifications and comments to the @Kroogz input.