ARE YOU PRE-TRIB, MID-TRIB, PRE-WRATH, OR POST-TRIB?

[GaryA]

Just curious. I used to be pre-trib until I studied Scriptures at a deeper level. It's obvious to me that all the Scriptures on the rapture and God's Wrath topic support a pre-wrath rapture, because 1) Jesus promises us in many Scriptures that we are saved from His wrath to come (John 3:36, Romans 5:9, Ephesians 2:1-10, Ephesians 5:6, 1 Thes 1:10, and many others), and 2) those who are witnessing the beginning of God's wrath say so in Rev 6:16-17.

I think the rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet. So whatever that is.

So, if you believe that the rapture happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet judgment (or last trumpet), then this means that the Believers must go through the all the trumpet judgments. This would then mean that God broke His many promises to His children that we would saved from His wrath to come, which begins at the opening of the 6th seal. Knowing all this, do you still hold to this view that we will be raptured at the sounding of the last trumpet (or 7th trumpet) in Rev 11:15?

In the context of all that is written in post #29, this sentence is in error in two places - the part before the comma, and the part after it.

The 'trumpet judgments' are not part of the 'Wrath of God'.

Part before the comma:
God's promises that His children will escape His wrath to come, or the Day of the Lord: Here are a few verses to support this, but there are many others:
1 Thes 5:9, "For God has not destined us (Believers) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through out Lord Jesus Christ."
Rev 3:10, "Because you (Believers) have kept the word of My perserverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testingn (God's wrath)."
Romans 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from th e wrath of God through Him."

Part after the comma:
Wouldn't you agree the the Wrath of God begins at the opening of the 6th seal per Rev 6:12-17. The actual people going through this even say so, when they say in Rev 6:17, "for the great day of Their wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has come." The next events to happen after this are the seven trumpet judgments in Rev 8.

I agree with:

~ scripture supports post-trib pre-wrath rapture
~ promises against Christians experiencing His wrath
~ rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet

I disagree with:

~ experiencing 'trumpet judgments' = experiencing 'wrath of God'
~ the Wrath of God begins at the "opening" of the 6th seal

Revelation 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I believe there is actually a space of time between the "opening" of the 6th seal and the commencement of the 'Wrath of God'.

If you will look on my 'Order of Events' chart ( http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html ) at the row containing the verses from Revelation 6 - you will see a separation between verses 12-13 and verse 14 - representing a completed span of time that these verses include. Verses 12-13 are aligned with other verses in the 'Trumpet' columns. Verse 14 is aligned with other verses in the 'Vial 7' column.

All of the things mentioned in the verses above take place over a span of time - from 'Trumpet 1' to 'Vial 7' - with the events of verses 15-17 actually taking place in the middle of the span (in the 'Pre-Wrath' column; albeit, not listed on the chart) and not the beginning or end of the span.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I believe there is actually a space of time between the "opening" of the 6th seal and the commencement of the 'Wrath of God'.

If you will look on my 'Order of Events' chart ( http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html ) at the row containing the verses from Revelation 6 - you will see a separation between verses 12-13 and verse 14 - representing a completed span of time that these verses include. Verses 12-13 are aligned with other verses in the 'Trumpet' columns. Verse 14 is aligned with other verses in the 'Vial 7' column.

All of the things mentioned in the verses above take place over a span of time - from 'Trumpet 1' to 'Vial 7' - with the events of verses 15-17 actually taking place in the middle of the span (in the 'Pre-Wrath' column; albeit, not listed on the chart) and not the beginning or end of the span.

Revelation 6:12-17 is not a right-now-instant-moment-in-time type of description. The events represented in these verses take place during a span of time that is over 3-1/2 years long.

To get the most-best-proper understanding from Revelation, you must be able to look at it "on God's time scale" and not as if every statement/verse/passage represents a particular specific moment in time.

An example I have given before:

Revelation 13:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Verse 7 represents events in "distant" past history. Verse 8 represents events that are in our future.

You must be willing to look at it "on God's time scale" to properly understand what it is talking about.

If you assume that these two verses together represent something at a singular moment in time, you will not see what it is actually referring to.

This is the problem with both the 'preterist' view ("Revelation is 100% past") and the 'pre-trib' view ("Revelation is 100% future") - when, it is neither 100% past nor 100% future - some is past and some is future. We are "in the middle" of the complete historical picture.

You must learn to see Revelation "on God's time scale" to properly understand it.

 

[IXOYE81]

Revelation 6:12-17 is not a right-now-instant-moment-in-time type of description. The events represented in these verses take place during a span of time that is over 3-1/2 years long.

To get the most-best-proper understanding from Revelation, you must be able to look at it "on God's time scale" and not as if every statement/verse/passage represents a particular specific moment in time.

An example I have given before:

Revelation 13:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Verse 7 represents events in "distant" past history. Verse 8 represents events that are in our future.

You must be willing to look at it "on God's time scale" to properly understand what it is talking about.

If you assume that these two verses together represent something at a singular moment in time, you will not see what it is actually referring to.

This is the problem with both the 'preterist' view ("Revelation is 100% past") and the 'pre-trib' view ("Revelation is 100% future") - when, it is neither 100% past nor 100% future - some is past and some is future. We are "in the middle" of the complete historical picture.

You must learn to see Revelation "on God's time scale" to properly understand it.

Thank you for sharing your chart - I see you put a lot of work into this. I'll review it later when I have time and get back to you. thanks.

 

[GaryA]

This is the problem with both the 'preterist' view ("Revelation is 100% past") and the 'pre-trib' view ("Revelation is 100% future") - when, it is neither 100% past nor 100% future - some is past and some is future. We are "in the middle" of the complete historical picture.

Should have said 'futurist' instead of 'pre-trib'.

 

[GaryA]

Is your list intended to cover all possible views?

That is actually a very good question since the thread title [question] contains a historical "prejudice" (of sorts) that actually favors the 'pre-trib' view - it assumes 'wrath' to be within 'trib' - as if there is no other possibility or view.

In my eschatological POV, 'pre-wrath' and 'post-trib' are essentially the same because the 'wrath' is 'post-trib'.

 

[GaryA]

ARE YOU PRE-TRIB, MID-TRIB, PRE-WRATH, OR POST-TRIB?

None of the above

I see the resurrection/rapture at Rev 14:14---

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 14:14 may easily be considered to be 'pre-wrath' due to what verses 19-20 say.

Combined with and compared to other scripture, it may be identified as being 'post-trib'.

I will agree wholeheartedly that this passage is referring to the Second Coming of Christ, resurrection/rapture, and 'Wrath of God'.

 

[Blain]

As far as us not having to go through his wrath I had a question I noticed the seven trumpets were mentioned with this but isn't the bowls his wrath?

 

[BobCarabbio]

Not so simple. If the Lord meant for it to be simple, He would not have given John the Revelation which goes into detail about the last days on what will happen and in the order in which these events will take place.

Which every theological To, Dirk, and Nowitsky has their own version of!!! Very impressive!!!

 

[GaryA]

As far as us not having to go through his wrath I had a question I noticed the seven trumpets were mentioned with this but isn't the bowls his wrath?

The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God'; the 'Trumpets' are not.

 

[Blain]

The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God'; the 'Trumpets' are not.

Right vials brain fart

 

[IXOYE81]

The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God'; the 'Trumpets' are not.

So why do you believe that the Trumpets are not part of the Wrath of God? Please use Scripture to support this view.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with:

~ scripture supports post-trib pre-wrath rapture
~ promises against Christians experiencing His wrath
~ rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet

I disagree with:

~ experiencing 'trumpet judgments' = experiencing 'wrath of God'
~ the Wrath of God begins at the "opening" of the 6th seal

Revelation 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I believe there is actually a space of time between the "opening" of the 6th seal and the commencement of the 'Wrath of God'.

If you will look on my 'Order of Events' chart ( http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html ) at the row containing the verses from Revelation 6 - you will see a separation between verses 12-13 and verse 14 - representing a completed span of time that these verses include.

There's no space of time there. All the seals show what will happen in the future. None of the events happen when Christ opens them. It's that simple.

 

[ewq1938]

So why do you believe that the Trumpets are not part of the Wrath of God? Please use Scripture to support this view.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come (arrives) after the 7th trump sounds and that is the time he destroys those who destroy the Earth. Clearly God's wrath hadn't come a long time before the 7th trump or else the statement would be meaningless.

 

[greenonions]

Part before the comma:
God's promises that His children will escape His wrath to come, or the Day of the Lord: Here are a few verses to support this, but there are many others:
1 Thes 5:9, "For God has not destined us (Believers) for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through out Lord Jesus Christ."
Rev 3:10, "Because you (Believers) have kept the word of My perserverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testingn (God's wrath)."
Romans 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from th e wrath of God through Him."

1 Thess. 5:9 is talking about wrath as in hell fire (Rev. 14:10-11). Wrath is set in contrast to eternal salvation in 1 Thess. 5:9 and we know that the opposite of eternal salvation is eternal damnation. Same with Romans 5:9.

Rev. 3:10. I think this refers to being saved from being thrown into hell at Jesus' second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9) also known as the day of the Lord's wrath (Rev. 6:17). The structure of Revelation 3:10 is similar to 2 Peter 2:9 NKJV "then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment" and I interpret them to mean the same thing.

Part after the comma:

Wouldn't you agree the the Wrath of God begins at the opening of the 6th seal per Rev 6:12-17. The actual people going through this even say so, when they say in Rev 6:17, "for the great day of Their wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has come." The next events to happen after this are the seven trumpet judgments in Rev 8.

I think Rev. 6:12-17 is the second coming of Christ. The Lamb's throne and face are visible. Just like Rev. 7:9-17, Rev. 6:12-17 is talking about the end of the great tribulation. Sandwiched in between are the sealing of the 144,000 which takes place between the 5th and 7th seals. In other words, Rev. 6:12-17 and Rev. 7:9-17 are previews of the end of time about "who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17; 7:9). These two preview passages provide context to tell us that the 144,000 who are sealed can stand before God in that day (14:1). So I think the "throw people into hell" wrath of God happens at the 7th trumpet, after the 7th bowl at Jesus' Second Coming.

 

[GaryA]

So why do you believe that the Trumpets are not part of the Wrath of God? Please use Scripture to support this view.

1) How scripture describes the 'Wrath of God':

Revelation 15:

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The words are very clear that the 'Vials' are exclusively the 'Wrath of God'.

The 'details' of the passage "separate" it from the other 'judgments' and make it self-contained.

2) The order of 'events':

A back-up-far-enough-to-see-the-whole-forest study of End Times prophecy will reveal that the other 'judgments' are before the Second Coming of Christ while the 'Wrath of God' is after - and, "executed" by Christ Himself. It truly represents the Wrath of God. The other judgments are "uncomfortable" and even 'horrific' in their own right; however, that does not mean that they are 'wrath' from God.

The order of events show a clear distinction between the 'Wrath of God' and other events in the timeline.

3) The 'target' of each 'judgment':

The other 'judgments' are "aimed" at the whole world "in general"; the 'wrath' is "aimed" specifically at evildoers who reject God/Christ unrepentingly.

4) The uniqueness of the 'Wrath of God' in its meaning and purpose:

Each 'judgment' has its own meaning and purpose in the grand scheme of God ("in my own words" - how I understand it or identify with it):

The 'Seals' are 'judgment' in a "You brought this upon yourself because you will not listen to Me." sense-and-manner.

Its 'purpose' is show to man the evils of man and the consequences/repercussions of his evil works.

The 'Trumpets' are 'judgment' in a "This is your last chance." sense-and-manner.

Its 'purpose' is to be a "final witness" to the world through the Two Witnesses.

It also serves as a "special witness" or "final wake up call" for/to the Jews.

Its 'purpose' is not 'punishment'; rather, it is a "final altar call" of sorts.

It is "all about" bringing souls to Christ in a Jude 23 kind of way...

The 'Vials' are 'judgment' in a "This is your punishment." sense-and-manner.

Its 'purpose' is to show man the authority and power of God in all things.

The 'wrath' is truly 'punishment delivered' with a secondary "You should have listened; I am the LORD!" to go with it.

5) The uniqueness of the 'Trumpets' in its meaning and purpose:

The 'Trumpet' events are caused by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony. (Revelation 11)

~

'judgment' does not automatically mean 'wrath'

 

[GaryA]

5) The uniqueness of the 'Trumpets' in its meaning and purpose:

The 'Trumpet' events are caused by the Two Witnesses during their prophecy/testimony. (Revelation 11)

I actually "stepped away" from this and forgot to come back and finish it. Perhaps it will be enough. If not, I will try to add to it later.

 

[GaryA]

There's no space of time there. All the seals show what will happen in the future. None of the events happen when Christ opens them. It's that simple.

Why do you think I put the word 'opening' in double-quotes?

It is because many people like to think of the "opening" of a seal in terms of the events associated with the seal.

My using the double-quotes recognizes this and uses it for the sake of the person I quoted.

By doing this, I am referring to the events, etc. rather than the moment Christ opens them.

It's that simple.

Pay attention!

I am well aware that the moment Christ opens them - during the prophetic experience of John - is different from the events that they represent.

We both know that it is important sometimes to make that distinction; however, there is no need for us to be the kind of person who searches for the smallest thing to criticize...

I noticed that you chose to criticize me and not the writers of the posts I quoted - who used "opening a seal" phrases to refer to the events...

( without double-quotes, no less! )

This is very telling indeed...

 

[Adstar]

Just curious. I used to be pre-trib until I studied Scriptures at a deeper level. It's obvious to me that all the Scriptures on the rapture and God's Wrath topic support a pre-wrath rapture, because 1) Jesus promises us in many Scriptures that we are saved from His wrath to come (John 3:36, Romans 5:9, Ephesians 2:1-10, Ephesians 5:6, 1 Thes 1:10, and many others), and 2) those who are witnessing the beginning of God's wrath say so in Rev 6:16-17.

I am a second coming of the LORD Jesus rapture believer.. So i believe the rapture will happen on the day of the return of Jesus to earth.. So what does that make me in your definitons?

 

[Jackson129]

Then those left alive will be caught up.
Then. I went to the store then I put gas in. Obviously I went to the store before I put the gas in. So... Then those left alive will be caught up. So verse before it. The lord shall decend with the shout of an arch angel . Then those alive shall be caught up. That's the second comming of Christ then those left alive will be caught up. To me it dosent get any more plain. I'm not gonna dive into the scripture rabbit hole when to me it is that obvious. That's just me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Then those left alive will be caught up.
Then. I went to the store then I put gas in. Obviously I went to the store before I put the gas in.

In this case, the word "then" here is "EPeita [G1899]" (I pointed out this word in the other thread, used in 1Cor15:23 between two pertinent phrases), distinct from the other word Paul used in 1Cor15:24a "then [EITA]" (which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with no time-element attached to it).


In the case of the former word ("EPeita"--as is used here in your verse, 1Th4:17), the word ISN'T conveying something "2000 years APART" (as many insist is being expressed in 1Cor15:23 where THIS "EPeita" word is being used by Paul).

IOW, what is being expressed in your example sentence at top (in quote box) is speaking of both time and sequence (but not something 2000 YEARS PART, as some suggest regarding that verse in 1Cor15:23);
same for its use in your verse you are pointing out, in 1Th4:16-17 ("then [EPeita]").




[note: my point HERE in this post is NOT to address "rapture-timing," but to further help explain the distinction between Paul's use of both "EPeita" (in 1Cor15:23) and "EITA" (in 1Cor15:24a), and how that impacts our understanding of what Paul is actually conveying there in THAT passage... the one which was being discussed in the other thread--not sure whether or not you saw those posts?]