The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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TrustandObey said:
Wow, you have no clue what these parables are about.

In all three parables are about something lost.

All three lost items were found because of the effort of someone.

The parables are about the effort to find the lost items.

Many things are lost but there is no guarantee that all things will be found.

It was the effort of the shepherd, woman and son that caused the items to be found.

Why did the father celebrate? Because his son was now alive not because "he was forever and always his father's son".

The prodigal son was dead and lost there was no celebrating until the son made the effort to return.

There was no celebrating for the sheep or coin until and only if they were found.

Many things are lost and many things are never found, regardless of what or who they are.
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so much self here

1. The rewards or earned or lost. Salvation is not a reward

2. The prodigal son was the son. He did not birth himself. He lost his rewards or his fathers blessings when he left. he did not stop being the son. He was nto dead as in unborn or someone elses child. He was dead according to have the ability to be blessed by the father.

He returned. And his blessing was restored. He was not rebirthed as a child. he never stopped being a child
 
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GWH said:
You just contradicted yourself, saying that those who are following Jesus never perish, NOT that those who followed/used to follow Jesus are now unsnatchable.
Click to expand...

I read, those that are in by Father and Son are in, God saves us and continues in teaching us, at least me this I have seen over the years in belief, God never giving up on me. even though I have given up on God going through my troubles, felt like it many times. and sinned over and over again also, I admit, I am accountable fro me, between God and me.
Yet, when the rubber hit the road, I couldn't stop belief. Wanted to, whenever in troubles, wanted to, those were the thought(s) I got every time. I found out in growing up, by not quitting belief to God, those thoughts were not mine, sounded, acted and was very convincing as being mine, yet were /are not mine. Yet, the new me by God for me and you and all others in belief too are new from Father's view and Father carries on the work Daddy starts in each person, this be what I see in thanksgiving and praise to Father and Son as Won for me too.
Romans 7 covers that when Paul states it is not the new you that sins, it is the sin in the flesh that is unredeemed that evil took control of in the first Adam and lost control in the 2nd Adam Christ as risen is when Satan lost the keys Satan had, Christ won for us all to stand in continued belief, no matter what for me at least, entering daily in thanksgiving and praise daily.
Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There are not two natures in us, until we put it in us by trying to do Law, our own first born flesh nature is weak, it may want to, yet it is weak and can't do it. As Jesus said it, the spirit of flesh is willing, yet flesh is weak and can't do it, is why he came to reconcile us all to himself to give new life to us in his risen Life for us. Thank you Daddy, PaPa, Father
Therefore reckon self dead to sin
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
No flesh before or after Christ fulfilled Law for us, can ever please God ever again at all, that is fulfilled in Son for us all to stand in belief to this truth thank you
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Therefore by God in willing belief to God be new in love and mercy too, thank you
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
so much self here

1. The rewards or earned or lost. Salvation is not a reward

2. The prodigal son was the son. He did not birth himself. He lost his rewards or his fathers blessings when he left. he did not stop being the son. He was nto dead as in unborn or someone elses child. He was dead according to have the ability to be blessed by the father.

He returned. And his blessing was restored. He was not rebirthed as a child. he never stopped being a child
Click to expand...

that is the amazing Love and mercy of God to us all, revealed to me when Son went willingly to the cross, it was not for him, it was for us the people born first in flesh and blood nature, not able to be perfect as shown to me throughout the first testament, non one could obey perfectly
Jesus did, died willingly once for all for us all as reconciled forgiven 100% forever from Daddy's, PaPa's, Father's view
(2 Cor 5:17-20) and notice verse 16, we once knew him in the flesh, today no more.
therefore I am to be in above anyone else nor is anyone else, thanks
 
GWH said:
You just contradicted yourself, saying that those who are following Jesus never perish, NOT that those who followed/used to follow Jesus are now unsnatchable.
Click to expand...
No, again read what is said

My sheep HEAR MY VOICE

My Sheep FOLLOW ME (it does not say they might hear ot they may follow. it says they actively follow and they actively hear)

then it says my Sheep WILL never (future) be snatch out of his hand.

I contradicted nothing, just read the passage. and don't make it so complicated.
 
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bluejean_bible said:
I asked your view.
Click to expand...
Here is the verse:

New International Version Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

The verse is written in the general, as is much of scripture.

Paul is speaking of the need for obedience not what is to be obeyed.

In other words, it is our perspective that he is addressing not the details.

I hold to the adage that we can debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need to obey.

Sadly many here mislabel obedience as assistance or merit.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
No, again read what is said

My sheep HEAR MY VOICE

My Sheep FOLLOW ME (it does not say they might hear ot they may follow. it says they actively follow and they actively hear)

then it says my Sheep WILL never (future) be snatch out of his hand.

I contradicted nothing, just read the passage. and don't make it so complicated.
Click to expand...
The question is not does the sheep hear the voice to the shepherd.

The question is are you his sheep.

This is at the core of this discussion.

You and many others here are simply claiming to be followers of Jesus without the possibility of error.

Am I correct? Is there any possibility of you being wrong or is it just those who disagree with you who are in error?
 
Lamar said:
Here is the verse:

New International Version Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

The verse is written in the general, as is much of scripture.

Paul is speaking of the need for obedience not what is to be obeyed.

In other words, it is our perspective that he is addressing not the details.

I hold to the adage that we can debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need to obey.

Sadly many here mislabel obedience as assistance or merit.
Click to expand...
work out your salvation.

who's salvation is it? He is not telling me to work out my brothers salvation, but the one who belongs to me.

In order to work it out, we must first have it. If we do not have salvation, we have nothing to work out.

Paul is telling us to bring the results of our salvation to fruition.

why?

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

1 It is God working in us
2. We should not complain or dispute.
3. Because we are lights in a world. what are we to do. Draw others out of darkness God uses us as light when we work out our salvation to draw others.

if we do not work this out. our light is dimmed and we can not draw people to Christ, because we are not seen as blameless are harmless.

Paul feared in all of his epistles of doing something that would take his ability to teach and lead others to christ.. We should fear the same as paul

It has nothing to do with eternal salvation or working to earn it
 
Lamar said:
The question is not does the sheep hear the voice to the shepherd.

The question is are you his sheep.

This is at the core of this discussion.

You and many others here are simply claiming to be followers of Jesus without the possibility of error.

Am I correct? Is there any possibility of you being wrong or is it just those who disagree with you who are in error?
Click to expand...

actually the question goes further than this

The question is. Can his sheep stop being his sheep (can they lose salvation)

I agree. if we are not his sheep non of this matters.

But if we are his sheep (born again, Adopted, sealed) then we can not ever stop being his sheep.

Salvation can not be lost.
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
No, again read what is said

My sheep HEAR MY VOICE

My Sheep FOLLOW ME (it does not say they might hear ot they may follow. it says they actively follow and they actively hear)

then it says my Sheep WILL never (future) be snatch out of his hand.

I contradicted nothing, just read the passage. and don't make it so complicated.
Click to expand...


Just read the passage and don't make it so complicated - excellent advice . . .

My sheep are continuing to hear my voice
and they are continuing to follow me
and I am continuing to give to them eternal life!

Wonderful truths and promises to the sheep! Amen! Hallelujah!
 
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TrustandObey said:
Wow, you have no clue what these parables are about.

In all three parables are about something lost.

All three lost items were found because of the effort of someone.

The parables are about the effort to find the lost items.

Many things are lost but there is no guarantee that all things will be found.

It was the effort of the shepherd, woman and son that caused the items to be found.

Why did the father celebrate? Because his son was now alive not because "he was forever and always his father's son".

The prodigal son was dead and lost there was no celebrating until the son made the effort to return.

There was no celebrating for the sheep or coin until and only if they were found.

Many things are lost and many things are never found, regardless of what or who they are.
Click to expand...
Actually, you haven't stayed anything contrary to my observations.
 
GWH said:
Resigning is not losing, but ignoring Scripture is just that, so please lose "snatch" because I have already jibed it
and deny the plain meaning of the "Sour 16"--
(for variety's sake :^)
Click to expand...
I'm not ignoring scripture.
You have an issue with words. I do not need to lose a word in the conversation in order to meet your approval of my hermeneutics.
 
homwardbound said:
I read, those that are in by Father and Son are in, God saves us and continues in teaching us, at least me this I have seen over the years in belief, God never giving up on me. even though I have given up on God going through my troubles, felt like it many times. and sinned over and over again also, I admit, I am accountable fro me, between God and me.
Yet, when the rubber hit the road, I couldn't stop belief. Wanted to, whenever in troubles, wanted to, those were the thought(s) I got every time. I found out in growing up, by not quitting belief to God, those thoughts were not mine, sounded, acted and was very convincing as being mine, yet were /are not mine. Yet, the new me by God for me and you and all others in belief too are new from Father's view and Father carries on the work Daddy starts in each person, this be what I see in thanksgiving and praise to Father and Son as Won for me too.
Romans 7 covers that when Paul states it is not the new you that sins, it is the sin in the flesh that is unredeemed that evil took control of in the first Adam and lost control in the 2nd Adam Christ as risen is when Satan lost the keys Satan had, Christ won for us all to stand in continued belief, no matter what for me at least, entering daily in thanksgiving and praise daily.
Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

There are not two natures in us, until we put it in us by trying to do Law, our own first born flesh nature is weak, it may want to, yet it is weak and can't do it. As Jesus said it, the spirit of flesh is willing, yet flesh is weak and can't do it, is why he came to reconcile us all to himself to give new life to us in his risen Life for us. Thank you Daddy, PaPa, Father
Therefore reckon self dead to sin
Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
No flesh before or after Christ fulfilled Law for us, can ever please God ever again at all, that is fulfilled in Son for us all to stand in belief to this truth thank you
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Therefore by God in willing belief to God be new in love and mercy too, thank you
Click to expand...

Yes, we do not accidentally lose salvation when we sin or doubt, but we can intentionally repudiate our salvation
per the "Sour 16" Scriptures commanding perseverance.
 
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GWH said:
Yes, we do not accidentally lose salvation when we sin or doubt, but we can intentionally repudiate our salvation
per the "Sour 16" Scriptures commanding perseverance.
Click to expand...
Have you ever been asked how many sins does it take, to fall from grace, or do we fall from grace every time we sin, by someone who believes in OSAS?
 
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bluejean_bible said:
The gospel is clear. The Book of Mark is a favorite. Perhaps you might start there.

God Bless.
Amen
Click to expand...
Oxford Dictionary defines unconditional to mean “not subject to any conditions”

If salvation was unconditional (not subject to any conditions), then would that mean there are no conditions on how to be saved?
 
Believer08 said:
Oxford Dictionary defines unconditional to mean “not subject to any conditions”

If salvation was unconditional (not subject to any conditions), then would that mean there are no conditions on how to be saved?
Click to expand...
It means there are no conditions on living in God's salvation.

The gospel details the conditions that pertain to being led to salvation.
 
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