Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Col 3

Speaks to men who have already been saved. In parts of this chapter they are referred to as God's elect, the New Man, those that will join Christ in glory.
Then they are told – therefore, as the elect of God – do these things out of love and thankfulness.....
Please notice that they are not told do these things to become renewed – they are told do these things because they have been renewed!

Hello BillyBob! I was just having a boo at this panel:

2 Timothy 1:9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1:4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.

 

[Rufus]

I did read them, thoroughly, as you so graciously requested, before even replying with the reply that you replied to. If you can grasp it, Isreal is representative of a microcosm of the entirety of world, and as those chapters speak toward the uniting Judah with Joseph, in Christ, it also informs us about Christ bringing both Jew and Gentile together as one, as speaking toward the macrocosmic scheme of things as God's plan to "buy the field". We are blessed because Jesus' sacrifice, sent in interest of Israel, bought salvation for the world and the Gentiles benefit just as much for the abundance of His Grace. The grace you've been shown is no more or less "common" than that shown to the world. You just can't see past the TULIP because you're holding it so closely.

Actually Israel, like Adam, is a type of Christ by contrasts! Jesus the antitype is God's True Israel because unlike national Israel Jesus truly was God's faithful servant! Christ was everything that Israel was supposed to be.

So...you say that you read the four chapters? Did you find any conditions in the New Covenant that Israel had to fulfill?

 

[Mem]

While we have a couple of Greek and Hebrew wordsmiths in residence, @PaulThomson and @studier, I don't want to risk the chance of missing the opportunity to ask their opinion (especially as recent as just now seeing that one expressed the wear on him). I'm interested in looking at the phrase regarding salvation "by grace through faith" with special attention to the words "by" and "through" since it is otherwise that, usually, the words "grace" and "faith" that get all the attention.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah...but you gotta look at the bright side with these FWT advocates: At least they have faith. Sadly, it appears, though, that their faith is in mankind for the most part. The sons of men are deep down God loving, God-honoring, God-seeking , virtuous, pious, humble and perhaps even worthy of God's love and salvation. Mr. Studier broke the mold recently, though, when he claimed that pre-conversion Paul, the Persecutor and Hater of Christians, nonetheless really loved God in his own way. That post of his is a keeper if no other reason than to show how far over the edge FWs are willing to go to support their false, humanism-oriented gospel. But there's more good news for them as well: THEIR kind of faith is certainly not a gift from God! So...at least they got that right.

Ah, yes, that is also astounding... what a great guy that natural man is in their theology despite how
many times we are told he is wicked, vile, corrupt, and evil. Gosh. Who should I believe ? Them? Or God???

The disciples asked Jesus, who can be saved? Jesus basically said, with man? Impossible. Only God can do this.

Free willer says, with man, it is possible. Yes, I see where their faith is.

 

[Mem]

Actually Israel, like Adam, is a type of Christ by contrasts! Jesus the antitype is God's True Israel because unlike national Israel Jesus truly was God's faithful servant! Christ was everything that Israel was supposed to be.

So...you say that you read the four chapters? Did you find any conditions in the New Covenant that Israel had to fulfill?

Yes, I did.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yeah...but you gotta look at the bright side with these FWT advocates: At least they have faith. Sadly, it appears, though, that their faith is in mankind for the most part. The sons of men are deep down God loving, God-honoring, God-seeking , virtuous, pious, humble and perhaps even worthy of God's love and salvation. Mr. Studier broke the mold recently, though, when he claimed that pre-conversion Paul, the Persecutor and Hater of Christians, nonetheless really loved God in his own way. That post of his is a keeper if no other reason than to show how far over the edge FWs are willing to go to support their false, humanism-oriented gospel. But there's more good news for them as well: THEIR kind of faith is certainly not a gift from God! So...at least they got that right.

Jhn 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

 

[PaulThomson]

And I have bad news for you: You came up empty again on why God would need to have faith. Oh...wait...is his faith in mankind? God trusts in mankind, does he? Here's from your favorite OT book:

Job 15:14-16
14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?
15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,
if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
16 how much less man, who is vile and corrupt,
who drinks up evil like water!
NIV

Okay...your turn. Go ahead and whip out your standard fallacy of composition retort to tell us that Eliphaz cannot be trusted in anything he says.

It is very telling regarding your hermeneutic, that you keep on citing Eliphaz merely because he agrees with you, but we can all see that God summarily rejected Eliphaz's arguments.

Job 42:7
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

 

[Mem]

It is very telling regarding your hermeneutic, that you keep on citing Eliphaz merely because he agrees with you, but we can all see that God summarily rejected Eliphaz's arguments.

As long as you're with the "in" crowd and, of course, you have to make sure that rejects know they're the "out" crowd. That's Snobbery101.

 

[Mem]

So, "by" gives me the idea of something outside of and I have the idea of "through" as something that I have to "get in" in order for it to qualify as being "through"... there may be better words that I could use to explain the ideas I have but that's a start.
Using a specific example which I believes embodies what I'm thinking of in the man that the Lord asked, "Do you believe?" and he answered, "Lord, I believe. Help though my unbelief." IOW, the man answered, "I do, but it's only a small grain of belief...but I trust that you can do something with this... make it grow perhaps... or I wouldn't even be here right now...but I am... because I think that You Are... but I... and... You... well, .... Lord, ...You know..."

 

[Magenta]

So, "by" gives me the idea of something outside of and I have the idea of "through" as something that I have to "get in" in order for it to qualify as being "through"... there may be better words that I could use to explain the ideas I have but that's a start.
Using a specific example which I believes embodies what I'm thinking of in the man that the Lord asked, "Do you believe?" and he answered, "Lord, I believe. Help though my unbelief." IOW, the man answered, "I do, but it's only a small grain of belief...but I trust that you can do something with this... make it grow perhaps... or I wouldn't even be here right now...but I am... because I think that You Are... but I... and... You... well, .... Lord, ...You know..."

John 15:5c; Philippians 2:13 Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Mem]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

So, everyone must come to Him, and there is no one that coming to Him to be save is not a requirement, and neither is anyone 'barred' from coming to Him, there is no thing that stands in any one's way, not anymore. For this reason, those that refuse to come's state ends as twice as tragic than the state they began in.

 

[Mem]

by grace, i.e. via the vehicle to get us there, through faith, i.e. you can 'come' to Jesus, like the Pharisees did, holding no value in the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and you may have come, by grace that He gave you any audience whatsoever, but if you did not approach through faith... well, ... that is the condition that I have yet to be able to dismiss as 'unconditional.'

 

[Magenta]

Mr. Studier broke the mold recently, though, when he claimed that pre-conversion Paul,
the Persecutor and Hater of Christians, nonetheless really loved God in his own way.

Ah, yes, loving one's error is now called loving God. Gosh. The Bible calls it idolatry.

Isaiah 5:20-21; Proverbs 26:12b Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter. 21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. There is more hope for a fool than for him.

 

[PaulThomson]

While we have a couple of Greek and Hebrew wordsmiths in residence, @PaulThomson and @studier, I don't want to risk the chance of missing the opportunity to ask their opinion (especially as recent as just now seeing that one expressed the wear on him). I'm interested in looking at the phrase regarding salvation "by grace through faith" with special attention to the words "by" and "through" since it is otherwise that, usually, the words "grace" and "faith" that get all the attention.

I have a copy of Thomas Newberry's "Newberry Reference Bible" which I would recommend for those who would like to get more of an accurate sense of the Hebrew and Greek in an English translation. Here is his graphic of the sense of the Greek prepositions.

https://www.webtruth.org/charts-of-...omas-newberrys-diagram-of-greek-prepositions/

"by grace through faith" is τῇ χάριτί διὰ τῆς πίστεως·
Eph. 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί (tEi gar chariti, For by grace) ἐστε (you are) σεσῳσμένοι (having been saved) διὰ τῆς πίστεως· (dia tEs pisteOs, through the faith) καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

The noun cases also each convey a sense of direction. The accusative case conveys a sense of movement towards (pros). The genitive conveys a sense of movement away apo/ek. The dative conveys a sense of being stationary, resting in place (en).

You will notice that tEi chariti has no preposition, but it is in the dative case, so contains in itself a sense of resting in grace. Often the preposition en (ἐν) is implied in the bare dative without it being written in the text. The sense of en (ἐν) is shown in the diagram
tEs pisteOs is in the genitive, conveying a sense of movement away, and has the preposition dia (through), hence together the idea of entering, passing through and exiting away, as shown in the diagram linked to.

So what does we are "having-been-saved" "in-grace" "through-faith". Imagine that grace is the entire area of the page the diagram is printed on. Everything occurs within God's grace. While in grace, we enter an attitude of faith and a particular expression or practice of faith (putting faith in Christ). While in the act and in faith we "are being saved". After completing or leave that particular act of faith, we are described as "having been saved ones". The present perfect tense means either -

1. We were saved in the past we have just left, and the effect is continuing, into the present (compare, "I have been living in Delhi for ten years [and still am]"; or

2. We were being saved in the past (while acting through faith), and we have stopped being saved (because no longer acting through faith). But it still is possible that we could again act through faith in the future. (Compare, "I have been shipwrecked twice [and I could still possibly become shipwrecked again].

So there are three tenses of being saved.
"I was saved" meaning that I was at some time in the past doing something through faith.
"I am being saved" meaning that at present I am doing something through faith.
"I will be saved" meaning at some time in the future I expect to be doing something through faith.

It is the faith through which one is being or doing that God imputes to us as righteousness, not the being or the doing per se..

 

[PaulThomson]

I have a copy of Thomas Newberry's "Newberry Reference Bible" which I would recommend for those who would like to get more of an accurate sense of the Hebrew and Greek in an English translation. Here is his graphic of the sense of the Greek prepositions.

https://www.webtruth.org/charts-of-...omas-newberrys-diagram-of-greek-prepositions/

"by grace through faith" is τῇ χάριτί διὰ τῆς πίστεως·
Eph. 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί (tEi gar chariti, For by grace) ἐστε (you are) σεσῳσμένοι (having been saved) διὰ τῆς πίστεως· (dia tEs pisteOs, through the faith) καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

The noun cases also each convey a sense of direction. The accusative case conveys a sense of movement towards (pros). The genitive conveys a sense of movement away apo/ek. The dative conveys a sense of being stationary, resting in place (en).

You will notice that tEi chariti has no preposition, but it is in the dative case, so contains in itself a sense of resting in grace. Often the preposition en (ἐν) is implied in the bare dative without it being written in the text. The sense of en (ἐν) is shown in the diagram
tEs pisteOs is in the genitive, conveying a sense of movement away, and has the preposition dia (through), hence together the idea of entering, passing through and exiting away, as shown in the diagram linked to.

So what does we are "having-been-saved" "in-grace" "through-faith". Imagine that grace is the entire area of the page the diagram is printed on. Everything occurs within God's grace. While in grace, we enter an attitude of faith and a particular expression or practice of faith (putting faith in Christ). While in the act and in faith we "are being saved". After completing or leave that particular act of faith, we are described as "having been saved ones". The present perfect tense means either -

1. We were saved in the past we have just left, and the effect is continuing, into the present (compare, "I have been living in Delhi for ten years [and still am]"; or

2. We were being saved in the past (while acting through faith), and we have stopped being saved (because no longer acting through faith). But it still is possible that we could again act through faith in the future. (Compare, "I have been shipwrecked twice [and I could still possibly become shipwrecked again].

So there are three tenses of being saved.
"I was saved" meaning that I was at some time in the past doing something through faith.
"I am being saved" meaning that at present I am doing something through faith.
"I will be saved" meaning at some time in the future I expect to be doing something through faith.

It is the faith through which one is being or doing that God imputes to us as righteousness, not the being or the doing per se..

Another useful chart of prepositions with cases and their meanings.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AncientGreek/comments/1dj2fva

 

[PaulThomson]

Yeah...but you gotta look at the bright side with these FWT advocates: At least they have faith.

How can we have faith, without a faculty that allows us to believe? Why can't we use that same ability to believe, that you just acknowledged we have,, and focus that onto Christ when we hear the gospel? Why do we need a brand new faculty to do the same thing, but toward Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

Another useful chart of prepositions with cases and their meanings.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AncientGreek/comments/1dj2fva

Here's and example of para (beside) which is used with all three cases, combining the preposition's idea of beside and the case idea of movement or rest.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/παρά
Preposition
[edit]
πᾰρᾰ́ • (părắ) (governs the genitive, dative and accusative)

1. [with genitive]
   1. from
   2. because of
2. [with dative]
   1. at, beside, by, near
3. μένειν παρὰ τισί ― ménein parà tisí ― to stay at someone's house/home
4. [with accusative]
   1. contrary to
   2. beside, by, near (w/ verbs of coming or going; w/ verbs of past motion; w/ verbs of striking or wounding)
5. παρ’ ἔμ’ ἵστασο ― par’ ém’ hístaso ― stand by/beside me

So. 1. We have the idea with the genitive of from + beside, so from or because of.
2. We have the idea with the dative of at + beside, so at, beside, near. used for staying at someone's [house}
3. We have the idea with the accusative of towards + beside, so with verbs of coming or going, coming near (to beside) going near (to beside). Also if someone is coming near, they may also bump into you and push you where you were not intending to go, hence contrary to, opposed to. Or, you bring two items side by side to compare them easier, hence contrary to. because one is mixing these two aspects with prepositions and cases, there are a number of possible words that could be used to express the preposition depending on the context> But hopefully, you can see the nuances that the Greeks had in mind.

Looking at en + dative, or the dative with an implied "en", a fish swimming in water swims by means of water, so en + dative can mean by means of, as well. by means of the grace in which we are immersed.

Looking at dia + genitive, a fish entering and swimming through a kelp bed and leaving it would be dia (through). A fish entering from utside and on its way through a kelp bed but still in it, would be eis (into). A fish swimming from inside a kelp bed and exiting it, would be ek/ex (out from). Picture a fish fleeing a predator and escaping into a kelp bed. Think of grace as the water and faith as the kelp bed, and swimming as work. The exit boundary of the kelp bed is the completion of faith. The fish is saved by means of/in water swimming into, through and out of the kelp bed, i.e. completing the work of swimming through the kelp bed. We are told elsewhere, that faith is completed by the works done out of faith.

But in fact, it is also already saved by entering the kelp bed and resting hidden in the kelp bed.

Jas 2:22
Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect (eteleiOthE: completed/ finished - the same verb Jesus used to say "It is finished" on the cross).

 

[GWH]

Perhaps a better label for TULIP aka Calvinism would be "divine determinism" (RM 9:19) or
"Father's favoritism" (LK 2:14) or "the Anti-John Hater" (RM 9:13).

 

[PaulThomson]

Perhaps a better label for TULIP aka Calvinism would be "divine determinism" (RM 9:19) or
"Father's favoritism" (LK 2:14) or "the Anti-John Hater" (RM 9:13).

Some calvinists profess compatibilism + exhaustive divine foreknowledge and claim that isn't effectively the same as divine determinism.

Anti-John hater?