The rapture is close?

[Johnjunior]

anyone can put scripture behind what they say that doesn't make you right, but concerning your question yes it would appear so unless you assume that he was speaking in council of spirits on earth which also may be the case but it doesn't specify does it?

So read the scripture, stop trying to interpret scripture. There is no private interpretation and I can read that to you.
Revelation 12: 9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So, I will ask you one more time are you saying that Devil and his evil angels can go back to Heaven whenever they please?

 

[Blain]

You are simply twisting everything. You redeemed us with his blood does not mean they are in Heaven. There is no scripture that supports going to Heaven.

Revelation 4 is describing the throne in Heaven but that is NOT DAVID'S THRONE. David never went to heaven and David does not have a throne in Heaven, GOD is coming here on Earth it is literally in the our father's prayer. THY (YOUR) KINGDOM.....COME. The kingdom has always been coming to us we don't go to it.
Revelation 21: 1 - 2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Noticed John didn't see the Saint ascending up to Heaven? Heaven is coming to US. New Jerusalem is coming down to EARTH.
Matthew 5: 5
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The meek are not ruling this Earth. Right now its the wicked. It did not say the meek will inherit Heaven. Do you believe the words that Jesus said himself? If you don't then I can't help you because Jesus said it, not me.

You are correct that Paul himself was not taken to third heaven but you are wrong to say there is no scripture of anyone going to heaven

• know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows".
• "And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell".

What does this mean?
Paul uses the phrase "caught up" to describe his transportation to heaven, which is the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The "third heaven" is the dwelling place of God, beyond the physical heavens of the sky and outer space.

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[Johnjunior]

I just pointed out how THE TEXT ITSELF shows the SCENE of where the "24 elders" thrones are surrounding the throne (in chpt 4) which states is "IN HEAVEN":

2At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it. 3The One seated there looked like jasper and carnelian, and a rainbow that gleamed like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and on these thrones sat twenty-four elders dressed in white, with golden crowns on their heads.

-- Revelation 4 BSB


One would have to be blind to think these "24 elders" (saints) are NOT "IN HEAVEN," when clearly THE TEXT ITSELF states this.

Revelation 4 is a description of GOD's throne it has nothing to do with the Saints throne in Revelation 5. Jesus promised us his throne not his fathers throne. Did you actually read the scripture I shared?

 

[Blain]

So read the scripture, stop trying to interpret scripture. There is no private interpretation and I can read that to you.
Revelation 12: 9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So, I will ask you one more time are you saying that Devil and his evil angels can go back to Heaven whenever they please?

Not whenever they please no but clearly there is a meeting place that God and satan spoke at it doesn't mention him just speaking to him on earth but it is also true it doesn't say he was in heaven either but even so lets just say you are right and end this argument.

 

[Johnjunior]

You are correct that Paul himself was not taken to third heaven but you are wrong to say there is no scripture of anyone going to heaven

• know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows".
• "And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell".

What does this mean?
Paul uses the phrase "caught up" to describe his transportation to heaven, which is the same Greek word used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The "third heaven" is the dwelling place of God, beyond the physical heavens of the sky and outer space.

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No he did not he is literally talking about Jesus Christ that's why he couldn't tell. Paul is not going to heaven and he confirm himself that no man can approach that light.
1 Timothy 6: 13 - 16
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

You see that? No man is going to heaven it aint happening and if it does Paul just lied.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ETA to the end of my last post] ^ and there is NO requirement for John to have seen it take place; but there are SEVERAL EVIDENCES in the text of chpts 4-5 that show / indicate that IT HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE (meaning, "our SNATCH [G726]" and its resultant 1Th3:13 location and the BEMA having taken place by that point).

 

[Blain]

No he did not he is literally talking about Jesus Christ that's why he couldn't tell. Paul is not going to heaven and he confirm himself that no man can approach that light.
1 Timothy 6: 13 - 16
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

You see that? No man is going to heaven it aint happening and if it does Paul just lied.

Paul was not among them when Christ ascended so no it is not Jesus he is talking about

 

[Johnjunior]

Not whenever they please no but clearly there is a meeting place that God and satan spoke at it doesn't mention him just speaking to him on earth but it is also true it doesn't say he was in heaven either but even so lets just say you are right and end this argument.

That's my entire point, if you cannot prove that Satan was in Heaven while speaking to GOD in the book of Job then why did you say it? Then turn around and make it seem like I am lying? I am a man and I can lie which is why I post the scripture, so you believe the WORDS that GOD left because I didn't write the bible, I simply believe what is written so if there is a rapture show me in the bible. Paul said to contend for the faith because last I read we going to all be on Earth.


Isaiah 45: 18
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

It is a vain thing for GOD to make the Earth, then take everyone to Heaven after Judgment Day. That's vain and GOD is not a vain GOD. If Adam and Eve didn't mess up in the garden of Eden then GOD would still be here with us. We drove him from this Earth with our sin. That's why he left because he will consume us all. So, he is waiting until the appointed time to come back.

 

[Johnjunior]

[ETA to the end of my last post] ^ and there is NO requirement for John to have seen it take place; but there are SEVERAL EVIDENCES in the text of chpts 4-5 that show / indicate that IT HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE (meaning, "our SNATCH [G726]" and its resultant 1Th3:13 location and the BEMA having taken place by that point).

That is a lie

 

[Blain]

That's my entire point, if you cannot prove that Satan was in Heaven while speaking to GOD in the book of Job then why did you say it? Then turn around and make it seem like I am lying? I am a man and I can lie which is why I post the scripture, so you believe the WORDS that GOD left because I didn't write the bible, I simply believe what is written so if there is a rapture show me in the bible. Paul said to contend for the faith because last I read we going to all be on Earth.


Isaiah 45: 18
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

It is a vain thing for GOD to make the Earth, then take everyone to Heaven after Judgment Day. That's vain and GOD is not a vain GOD. If Adam and Eve didn't mess up in the garden of Eden then GOD would still be here with us. We drove him from this Earth with our sin. That's why he left because he will consume us all. So, he is waiting until the appointed time to come back.

This is why because satan and God were clearly on speaking terms and if he was not in heaven at that time why say he was going to and fro on the earth when he was speaking to God that should have been obvious but God asked him anyways but I am not trying to make you a liar we just disagree and I have no interest in a pointless argument I said let us say you are right and end this argument

 

[Johnjunior]

Paul was not among them when Christ ascended so no it is not Jesus he is talking about

What do you mean Paul was not among them, last I read Jesus ascended into Heaven alone in fact I posted Acts 1 already no one else went to Heaven with Jesus not even David.

Read the scripture, as a matter of fact read it directly from your bible. Paul said this in the last verse:
1) Only JESUS is immortal
2) JESUS is living in a light that no man can approach, and no man will ever approach it.

The question is what light is that??

Go back and read Genesis 1: 3. Then GOD turned around and made the Sun in verse 14 of the same chapter. Why did GOD do that? Because there is a big body of water that blocks the light that he made in Genesis 1: 3 so he made the sun and moon so we can see on the Earth. If you don't understand Genesis 1 then you will not understand what Paul is talking about.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

you make some good points here as well, the term caught up is not used in many places but in the places it is used it has great importance.

Agreed.

Jesus ascended we will be caught up these two very different things

Yes, yes, YES!!!!








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And as far as what 2Cor12:1-7a (about "a man IN Christ" who was "caught up [G726] to the third heaven"... which we believe was Paul... who there received "the abundance of revelations" and consequently there was given him a "thorn in the flesh" LEST "I [/Paul] should be exalted above measure" [why would it say this?!])..., I believe the following verse relates: 2Tim2:6 - "The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits [G2590--SEE THIS WORD!!]." (Same book tells us Paul filled all these "illustrations," here.) The next verse states, "7 CONSIDER what I say; and the Lord give thee UNDERSTANDING [G4907] in all things" Interesting to think about.

 

[Blain]

What do you mean Paul was not among them, last I read Jesus ascended into Heaven alone in fact I posted Acts 1 already no one else went to Heaven with Jesus not even David.

Read the scripture, as a matter of fact read it directly from your bible. Paul said this in the last verse:
1) Only JESUS is immortal
2) JESUS is living in a light that no man can approach, and no man will ever approach it.

The question is what light is that??

Go back and read Genesis 1: 3. Then GOD turned around and made the Sun in verse 14 of the same chapter. Why did GOD do that? Because there is a big body of water that blocks the light that he made in Genesis 1: 3 so he made the sun and moon so we can see on the Earth. If you don't understand Genesis 1 then you will not understand what Paul is talking about.

the apostles were with Jesus when he ascended Paul was not that was my point

 

[Blain]

Agreed.



Yes, yes, YES!!!!








____________

And as far as what 2Cor12:1-7a (about "a man IN Christ" who was "caught up [G726] to the third heaven"... which we believe was Paul... who there received "the abundance of revelations" and consequently there was given him a "thorn in the flesh" LEST "I [/Paul] should be exalted above measure" [why would it say this?!])..., I believe the following verse relates: 2Tim2:6 - "The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits [G2590--SEE THIS WORD!!]." (Same book tells us Paul filled all these "illustrations," here.) The next verse states, "7 CONSIDER what I say; and the Lord give thee UNDERSTANDING [G4907] in all things" Interesting to think about.

yes a man IN Christ not Christ himself thank you for making my point

 

[Johnjunior]

This is why because satan and God were clearly on speaking terms and if he was not in heaven at that time why say he was going to and fro on the earth when he was speaking to God that should have been obvious but God asked him anyways but I am not trying to make you a liar we just disagree and I have no interest in a pointless argument I said let us say you are right and end this argument

Argument?

This is what I am doing....
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

I have proved that all Saints are going to be on Earth including Moses after both resurrections and you have not done so with the rapture.

If you say something that is wrong I am supposed to reprove, which is why I asked you to prove your doctrine. If you love Jesus, you are supposed to feed his sheep once you get understanding. Now if you disagree with the scripture ain't nothing I can do because I noticed you changed the meaning of quite a few scriptures to suite your doctrine. To that I will say this....Check that spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5: 21
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[shittim]

Holy Spirit continues to confirm Harpazo is very near.
blessings

 

[Johnjunior]

yes a man IN Christ not Christ himself thank you for making my point

It is Christ himself and this is how I know.
John 3: 12 - 13
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The bible interprets itself, it does not need your help. Unless you are telling me that Jesus is a liar then it's clear Paul is talking about Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 4 is a description of GOD's throne it has nothing to do with the Saints throne in Revelation 5. Jesus promised us his throne not his fathers throne. Did you actually read the scripture I shared?

I just supplied the TEXT ITSELF (chpt 4) in that post of mine you quoted (perhaps read that scriptural text);
the SETTING says "IN HEAVEN";

and the 24 thrones were shown "SURROUNDING THE THRONE" (the one that is being SAID is "IN HEAVEN" in chpt 4--Verses 2-4 say this explicitly... which quoted TEXT I gave in my post.)



chpt 4 -

2At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it. 3The One seated there looked like jasper and carnelian, and a rainbow that gleamed like an emerald encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and on these thrones sat twenty-four elders dressed in white, with golden crowns on their heads.

 

[Blain]

It is Christ himself and this is how I know.
John 3: 12 - 13
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The bible interprets itself, it does not need your help. Unless you are telling me that Jesus is a liar then it's clear Paul is talking about Jesus.

It says a man in Christ I don't know how to simplify that more for you if it was talking about Christ he would have said so and also Paul did not know Christ at the time of his ascension so I don't know how you can assume it is Christ it says plain as dfay it wasn't

 

[Johnjunior]

I just supplied the TEXT ITSELF (chpt 4) in that post of mine you quoted (perhaps read that scriptural text);
the SETTING says "IN HEAVEN";

and the 24 thrones were shown "SURROUNDING THE THRONE" (the one that is being SAID is "IN HEAVEN" in chpt 4--Verses 2-4 say this explicitly... which quoted TEXT I gave in my post.)

I read it again, you are correct, the 24 elders were named men. Their names are in 1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 5, 7 - 19. That's why I mentioned that there are 3 Heavens. Earth is Heaven mate. The sky where the clouds and birds fly is the 2nd heaven and where Jesus and the Father is the 3rd Heaven.