The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe you and I can have more productive discussion. Don't get caught up in the mess of the other ones. They'll remain a mess until if and when @Everlasting-Grace decides to go through some Scripture in more depth. I've been clear how I see John6 that unbelievers are commanded to work to hear and learn what God teaches so they can believe His teaching. I think I've been clear re: Phil2. I think I'm seeing some terminology being stated by others to avoid the language of Phil2, but I'm used to that

lol. I already answered your question about those passages. especially in john 6. your trying to take context out of the passage. and as long as you do this. You can not comprehend what is saying. The bible was not written in verse form. Jesus had a conversation. you can;t take bits and pieces of a conversation out and make a new doctrine out of it.

So again, What work is required? You can not sit here and claim work is required. then when you are asked what particular works we must do to end up in heaven, not respond.

One more time, For me to assure that I will be in heaven on the other side. and not be cast to hell. What work or works do I need to accomplish?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The question wasn't to you.

Do you think John6:27 is a command for unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel?

Do you think Phil2:12-13 is a command to Christians to work together with God to accomplish your salvation with fear and trembling?

If this helps, do you see in Luke 8 varying levels of productivity for the 4th soil?

Don't change the language of Scripture to suit your tradition.

Simple questions. Simple suggestion at the end.

see, Your being dishonest. why can't you answer the question.,

Again, When you answer our questions we will answer yours

 

[HeIsHere]

Elaborate?

Paul is not advising them to work for what they already possess, spiritual salvation.

Again he is speaking about progressive sanctification, which saves (saved having a range of meanings determined by the context and first principles) us on the level of soul/mind.

Sanctification being distinct and separate from justification.

Why in "fear and trembling" because they may lose their justification, NO, that is not all what he is saying, in fear and trembling
is also seen here.

“But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth.” (Mark 5:33, NKJV)

That she fell down before Him tells me this "fear and trembling" is a positive response to God's working in our lives because this is not automatic as some like to teach (cough, cough) it is a process we need to learn about and put to work. (See James)

 

[HeIsHere]

Just that? That verse came from 1 Corinthians 15 - you didn't go far enough into that chapter. Paul had to go over the entire concept of what Jesus did dying and resurrecting from the dead and what it did for us because some people were no longer following after the Lord, not doing the work of the Lord (which is by His Holy Spirit). That whole chapter culminated into Paul's exhortation on its last verse:

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

So this is not just a one time event where you can just mentally agree with the Lord and go and do whatever you want. It has to be an on-going walk with the Lord in His Spirit. Remember: salvation doesn't just make Jesus your Savior, He has to be your Lord too, where you have to deny yourself as well as die to self. How can He sanctify you if you aren't walking with Him by His Spirit? What can God do, if you're not fully cooperating with Him? He isn't going to force you. If Jesus isn't your Lord, you're NOT qualified for salvation.


⌛

Firstly, I see nothing in the entire passage where God will un-justify a person. Paul is exhorting his audience to walk the worthy walk, that is the bulk of his writings by the way.

Secondly, salvation is a gift to be received by having confidence and trusting in the Gift-Giver, so in that sense there is a change of mind
(which in ancient culture was the very foundation of a person heart and mind) away from dead works towards the complete and finished work of Christ Jesus.

Thirdly, you need perfect obedience every nano second of the day and night to qualify to save yourself.

Fourthly, absolutely agree, I do not support nor adhere to that school of thought which teaches that God forces people in either salvation or sanctification, if that were true Paul would never have to pen a single letter.
We do need to yield to God and we also need to lean into the new life that God has given to us, but this will not save us or keep us saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I do understand your position better after this post.

Regarding Philippians 2:12, I disagree that salvation there is speaking of our initial salvation. It is clear from the verse itself this is not the case. He begins the verse by speaking of their past obedience when he was present with them, and now in his absence he is exhorting them to continue in it. The verse makes no sense for him to be exhorting them to salvation after so long a time. Sanctification is what is in view.

I am amazed at those who think this means to work to earn salvation. And not work out. or bring forth the results of your salvation.

Yes, I like this, it is our sanctification being spoken of here. Our daily walk. and like Paul we should fear. that we will do something to tarnish our reputation. or put out our light. He wants us to be blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

 

[studier]

Paul is not advising them to work for what they already possess, spiritual salvation.

So, your phrase "spiritual salvation" basically means or relates to "Justification"

I agree with you that Paul is commanding Christians in Phil2.

Again he is speaking about progressive sanctification, which saves (saved having a range of meanings determined by the context and first principles) us on the level of soul/mind.

I agree in concept, but Paul uses the word "salvation" and if I know and understand as you clearly seem to that salvation is a process and I can see that Paul is commanding Christians, then I see no reason to change Paul's language. In fact, I see problems created when we change the language of Scripture.

In addition, Paul is clearly commanding work to be done by the Christian in salvation. I've never said anything about keeping or loosing salvation here. Until we grasp that we do work together with God in our salvation, just as we are commanded to do here by Christ's Apostle and thus Christ, there really is no discussion I want to have re: keeping or loosing salvation.

Sanctification being distinct and separate from justification.

Again, this is a theological construct because when we are justified, we are also sanctified.

ESV 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ​

​

ESV Heb. 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ​

I simply believe the Text is inspired and I don't like men confusing my understanding

Why in "fear and trembling" because they may lose their justification, NO, that is not all what he is saying, in fear and trembling
is also seen here.

Again, I've made no statements re: keeping or loosing. I'm simply first arguing for some accuracy re: work because IMO this works salvation debate is a mess.

Also, I said the fear and trembling in 2:12 in context is related to 2:13 and speaks of the Christian not getting at cross-purposes with the Father who is working - providing capacity - for the Christian to do what he's being commanded to do. IOW our Father obviously wants us to be working with Him to accomplish our salvation and we best understand this.

“But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth.” (Mark 5:33, NKJV)

That she fell down before Him tells me this "fear and trembling" is a positive response to God's working in our lives because this is not automatic as some like to teach (cough, cough) it is a process we need to learn about and put to work. (See James)

Fear and trembling is attached to a few very important words and concepts, one of them being godliness. It's something I think many of us comprehend as an edge we should maintain to whatever degree because we have a perfect Father and a perfect First-Born Brother and Lord whom our Father is raising us to be in the form of. IOW, when in this life do we not have a Father who can execute some discipline He deems necessary [to save us]?

To simplify the task, I've just added and highlighted a few things within your quoted post.

 

[studier]

I already answered your question about those passages. especially in john 6

So you say but not all of them. I think you've probably taken the language as far as you can.

 

[studier]

I am amazed at those who think this means to work to earn salvation

I'm amazed that you read this into what others have said to the limited degree the discussion has progressed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So you say but not all of them. I think you've probably taken the language as far as you can.

We won;t know because you will not answer the questions we have asked you. You are being evasive

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm amazed that you read this into what others have said to the limited degree the discussion has progressed.

I am amazed that you think you know me and all the people I have discussed this passage with over the years that believe this passage is used to say we must work to earn salvation.

Do you think it does? If not. then I was not talking about you.

So maybe you need to stop assuming things.

 

[Musicmaster]

I feel for my roman catholic acquaintances who have no clue how long they will be tortured in their imaginary purgatory before entry into wherever it is they think they go after "purging". What a nightmare... They never know if they have done enough to have any kind of bearable eternity at all. Some live with more self-assurances than others due to the greater measure of money they have that they can put into the coffers of thr RCC to purchase indulgences.

Much of Protastentism is not much better off, not knowing if they will have persevered well enough to have earned their salvation. The loss of salvation gang isn't much better off than their Roman catholic counterpart. That brings to mind the cliche' of "It sucks being you." The torture that undergirds the warped mindset of works-based retention of salvation while pointing at portions of scripture directed at Israel only fuels the fires of their confusions. How tragic indeed.

MM

 

[studier]

Regarding Philippians 2:12, I disagree that salvation there is speaking of our initial salvation.

It think you're disagreeing with what you think I said, which is part of the reason I stress this verse. A Christian has been saved, agreed? A Christian is being saved, agreed? I said 2:12 is a command to a Christian. I think the only reason you disagree is because you are missing that Christians - those who were saved - are being saved, and this is what Paul is talking about when He commands Christians to accomplish their salvation with fear and trembling.

There's no reason to change God's language. It's an error to do so.

 

[Cameron143]

pass

It think you're disagreeing with what you think I said, which is part of the reason I stress this verse. A Christian has been saved, agreed? A Christian is being saved, agreed? I said 2:12 is a command to a Christian. I think the only reason you disagree is because you are missing that Christians - those who were saved - are being saved, and this is what Paul is talking about when He commands Christians to accomplish their salvation with fear and trembling.

There's no reason to change God's language. It's an error to do so.

I'm not changing the language, but clarifying it. Your posts make it seem that salvation is the result of works rather than works filling out our salvation. What Paul is saying is no different from Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-7...add to your faith goodness; and to goodness...etc.
The command is to grow your faith, not get saved.

 

[Believer08]

It was my goal to help others see the issue of saying that Christians who depart from the faith were “never truly saved in the first place”. Thanks to people such as @GWH @Lamar @TrustandObey @studier @2ndTimeIsTheCharm @Hakawaka and others, I believe their great insights proved I was not the only one who believes there is an issue with saying that about people who identify as Christians. I’m thankful I’m not the only one who sees the flaw with that reasoning..and glad my effort was not in vain. To God be the glory.

 

[Lamar]

We have people make claims like "we must do works" but then when it gets to the root of the issue, they can not name any works we must do.

It is the Bible that says we must do works not posters.

James 2:24
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

We may debate what is needed to be saved but not the need to obey.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And btw ..... walking in the Spirit does not "earn" salvation.

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17, 19-21‬ ‭

 

[Believer08]

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-17, 19-21‬ ‭

Pretty clear that Paul did not believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved.

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Pretty clear that Paul did not believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved.

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Jesus said, of those whom the father gives him, he shall lose none.

How does this comport with verse 4 of Paul's statement?

 

[BillyBob]

No one can take away the gift that I have received.... NO ONE!

 

[Musicmaster]

Pretty clear that Paul did not believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved.

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You know nothing of idioms in the Greek. Fallen from grace does not mean a loss of salvation. Nobody is saved through the Law. Paul taught being sealed by Holy Spirit, and if you think there can still be loss of salvation after having been sealed, then you must be following some other god who has a very weak and wimpy spirit. I hope that's not the case.

MM