Finding unity: obedience

[Believer08]

I don’t think anyone would disagree with the importance of obedience. We all agree it is important. The issue that we seem to be having is why we need to obey. One group believes in obeying to be saved. The other group seems to believe obedience is because they are saved. I stated in a previously the following: “There is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.”

For any on this forum who I have accused or misrepresented in what they believe, I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I think it’s important we try to reach an agreement and let go of any misrepresentations or accusations. We will never come to unity if we do not. Agreed?

 

[Believer08]

@GWH @TrustandObey @Lamar

 

[Soyeong]

I don’t think anyone would disagree with the importance of obedience. We all agree it is important. The issue that we seem to be having is why we need to obey. One group believes in obeying to be saved. The other group seems to believe obedience is because they are saved. I stated in a previously the following: “There is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.”

For any on this forum who I have accused or misrepresented in what they believe, I humbly ask for your forgiveness. I think it’s important we try to reach an agreement and let go of any misrepresentations or accusations. We will never come to unity if we do not. Agreed?

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, so obedience is not proof of being saved, but rather it is what being saved means.

 

[Believer08]

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, so obedience is not proof of being saved, but rather it is what being saved means.

Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?

 

[Soyeong]

Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?

We can do works that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Ok, we both agree we cannot earn salvation through works (Eph. 2:9; Titus 3:5). We both agree eternal life/eternal salvation is a gift (Rom. 6:23). So on that, we agree. I also agree that it is God’s grace that instructs us to live righteously, deny ungodliness, etc etc. I also agree that we are to be a doer of the word and not a hearer only (Jms. 1:22). I agree Jesus saves us from sin (Acts 4:10-12) and agree sin is a transgression of God’s law. You would agree that to be saved one has to have belief or faith (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:8, etc etc). Since one must have faith to be saved, I would think you would believe having faith in Jesus would be being obedient to Jesus. We would both agree having faith isn’t disobeying Jesus, so having faith would have to be obeying Jesus. So, when Jesus taught to have faith to be saved, that would be obeying Him, His authority, to be saved, would it not?

I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.

 

[Believer08]

I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.

I agree that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). I have never disputed that and I have never argued against that on here. I think we would both agree on that. I also think we would both agree that it is not a dead faith that is saved by grace.

 

[Soyeong]

I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

I very rarely have seen someone take the position that we need do works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but I've commonly seen people make that assumption. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and in Hebrew 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him, so verses likes these clearly show that our salvation requires us to be workers of lawfulness, however, if I take that position, then I find no shortage of people who assume that I am in support of earning our salvation even though I didn't say anything about earning it. God did not give His law as a means of earning our salvation even though perfect obedience, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why our salvation requires us to be a doer of it.

 

[Believer08]

I find no shortage of people who assume that I am in support of earning our salvation even though I didn't say anything about earning it

That has been my case as well. And that is one of the reasons I made the thread…to find understanding and try to come to an agreement.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

I agree that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). I have never disputed that and I have never argued against that on here. I think we would both agree on that. I also think we would both agree that it is not a dead faith that is saved by grace.

A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?

 

[Believer08]

A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?

It’s faith, sure..but it’s a type of faith that doesn’t obey. It doesn’t save. The kind of faith that is saved by God’s grace is an obedient faith that is alive in humble submission in obedience to the authority of Christ. When I say dead faith, I’m referring to a faith that is dead..that’s useless..it has a kind of faith that has no obedience whatsoever.

 

[GWH]

I follow you here.
Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.
Obedience for salvation is purely grace through faith.
After salvation, there are a lot of works we should do. That's what Jude 2 is about. People I got to know as brothers and sisters have shown that to me and others. It's a beautiful person who loves the Lord and their brother to help in time of need.

The worldly pastors and priests mix all of that up and muddy the waters.
They teach obedience to certain works in the bible results in possible salvation.

Re "Salvation needs to be clearly understood and the believer's walk with the Lord is a separate matter.":

I used to make the mistake of separating saving faith from walking faith, but recently I received the following insight:

The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time.
The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

Recent insight: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/during sanctification (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[GWH]

That has been my case as well. And that is one of the reasons I made the thread…to find understanding and try to come to an agreement.

A goal all Christians should share and a reason I began the Hermeneutics thread.

 

[GWH]

A dead faith, as I recall, is still faith; it's just dead.
There were couple christians who were going to heaven at death, because they received the free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ.
They came across a friend who had a serious need.
The one said I can help you out.
The other said, see you guys later. I'm busy and have important things to tend to. I hope it all works out for you.

Which one had dead faith?

Yes, and we see illustrated that faith and will are essentially synonymous and can be oriented toward God or the devil/I-dolatry.