The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

More and more Christians are embracing OSAS though because it's easy and requires no repentance on their part.

I love you but this is just outright wrong

If you do not repent. You will never come to God in faith

If you never come to God in faith. you will not be saved.

so there is no OSAS without repentance. and to say it is easy. all we have to do is look at these threads. if OSAS was so easy it would be one of the largest followings in the christian faith. But that is not the case.. All religions worldwide believe in NOSAS.. include much of christianity. it is the most prevelant belief system

 

[Jimbone]

Yeah actually he did


6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is not denying OSAS. this is telling us we are saved eternally. baptized into christ by God himself.. so why would we walk in sin?


Yeah. no pride here...


What sin did not get paid for on the cross?

can you name one?


No actually it does not. Because those who adhere to it have truly repented.

Actually NOSAS leads to a life of sin. You sin, repent, its forgiven, you sin some more.


Thats fine, remain in darkness. it does not bother us any


Sorry Bud your not God. you do not get to tell us what we believe


Yawn.

Jesus taught OSAS long before these two men who I have never heard of did.





It looks like as usual. you do not know w3hat he believes,. or any of us for that matter.

I just don't get this argument for the weakness and insufficiency of our God's saving power. The dead set objective of preaching "you can lose salvation, God's power is not enough to keep you" is mind boggling to me.

The only way I can even start to understand the point of view those who argue this, and I do try to understand how they see it, is that these people can not have possibly experience the transforming, eye opening, veil lifting, undeniable power our God gifted me (and many others I've heard testify) with when I was born again. They can not have been witness to this power and still cling to the arguments they make. Talking about "we work co-op with God for salvation", while calling someone who says "All glory to God" a heretic. I just don't get it.

I've gotten to the point with many of these people where it was time to move on. There's no mutual conversation, not enough respect for you to actually address what you say. They first label you falsely, then tell you what you believe, and go on to rip apart "your" beliefs they just told you that you hold, neverminded you say emphatically and very clearly that you DON'T believe that, and then boast in their vanquishing "your" horrible teachings as if they're doing God a great favor and He's lucky to have them. He's shown me that we just can't change these kinds of people like this, so I will address things like this, or directly address bad teachings they post, but will not respond back to anything they reply. There's just no point and it doesn't bring glory to Jesus name. (for me personally)

Anyway, I agree and think you break these things down well, and good luck having a good faith conversation with them.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The fact that you think I'm boasting by simply informing you that we can both get into the language of the Text as necessary coupled with the fact that you downplay the value of such abilities in others to produce agreement, while you put forth Greek to substantiate your opinions is all very telling IMO. As long as it comes from you, it's valuable. If it's from others, then it's boasting and unproductive.

The fact that you continue to bear false witness shows me that for some reason you are afraid to answer my sepcific questions.

I made a statment, if you are tryign to merit salvation you are boasting.

If you are not trying to merit salvation. then my statement would not apply to you.

But since you will not answer my question as to what works you think a true believer has to do.. well I guess we will never know what you really believe no will we?

No, you didn't get it right. Again, IMO I've been clear to the degree we've gotten into anything that might be productive.

Why do you call ongoing Christian growth "Conditional sanctification"? Will you explain "conditional"?

Because it is conditional. it is conditional on what I do on a daily basis, am I walking with God. is he growing me, or am I taking a day off. My sanctification goes up and down all the time. as we work towards being more like Christ. in the ultimate goal of being glorified. wh8ch will not happen until we are ressurected

its why Paul said he continued to run the race. because he had not got there yet. his sanctification or christian grown was ongoing.

.

After answering this, assuming you do, let's start with some Scripture. I propose that you explain John6:27 in context and in as much Greek as you choose in order to make it clear what Jesus is commanding and how it fits with your view of meritorious works.

Then I propose Phil2:12-13 in any context you choose to make it clear what Paul is commanding. Since you're versed in Greek to whatever degree (I don't know if you're self-taught or have gone through formal training, but it doesn't matter if you don't care to share) I'd ask that you do some work on kategrazomai and how it is used there in comparison to other verses. I have the same request that you explain how this fits your view of meritorious works but also if you see this as an Apostolic command to do some work in our salvation process as planned and gifted by God to us.

It would probably be better if we can stick to the point and be briefer as best we can. Thanks for the brevity in this quoted post.

ok. I have responded to those two passages on the one hand twice now. on the other hand, my last post.

do you want to discuss those passages. or not?

Again, WHAT WORKS DO YOU BELIEVE YOU MUST TO TO BE SAVED?

How many times do I have to ask this?

 

[studier]

OSAS is the Gospel!

From what I've read, you seem to express yourself clearly. So, I have a question for you and I'm not sure this is its final form. It may take a bit of discussion or more questions to bring out what is still a bit in the back of my mind:

Do you think the made-up phrase for which OSAS stands for, can be misunderstood, misapplied, abused, etc. to the point where it's marching some off a proverbial cliff?

 

[HeIsHere]

Do you think the made-up phrase for which OSAS stands for, can be misunderstood, misapplied, abused, etc. to the point where it's marching some off a proverbial cliff?

Yes I do......but I use it because it is succinct.

 

[studier]

It is still no cooperationg.

When My father hands me a Christmas gift. I am no cooperating with him to get the gift. I recieve it freely in aww of his love for me..

Again this makes no sense.

I understand your point of view. I obviously disagree with it. There are many ways to approach this from other angles. Maybe it'll come up again. What makes no sense to me and to some others I read here and elsewhere, is that someone can offer or even hand another a gift, but the receiver doesn't do anything to agree to or reach out to receive it. It seems like theological tradition overriding practicality.

He did not tell me to work for this food. He told them NOT to work for food which perishes. but for food which will endure to eternal life. which he will give them.

Your tryngn to insert context where there is non

Again, please stop telling me what I'm trying to do, especially that I'm trying to be eisegetical, which is the last thing I'm trying to do with God's Word. Eisegesis vs. exegesis was the first thing I got straight with my first Greek professor in response to my first question when the semester began.

I usually quote the NKJ but only because I got used to doing searches in it. If you have a different preference, I'm happy to look at it. I don't think it's productive to quote Greek texts on these threads, so I'll bring out the Greek or respond to it as necessary. I'll add info or change words to be more literal or will elaborate a range of meaning if I think it's helpful.

NKJ John 6:27 "Do not labor (work) for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

• Jesus is talking to unbelievers who were following Him around when He was on the earth. So, His command is to them and we are looking for principles that may apply to others including us.
• Jesus commands them to not work for the food which perishes or the perishing food.
• When Jesus says "but" (alla) He effectively repeats the command to not work and changes it to a positive command to work for the food which remains/lasts into/for eternal life which (eternal life) the Son of Man will give to you (the unbelievers)...

It seems like we're saying the same thing - that Jesus is commanding them to work for food which will last. So, how is this not a command from Jesus to work for food which in context is His teaching?

How am I eisegeting but you're not changing or deleting or reading past Jesus' words?

We can start here. Please bring out anything you think makes your case.

I'm going to break up these posts to attempt to not intermix topics.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I understand your point of view. I obviously disagree with it. There are many ways to approach this from other angles. Maybe it'll come up again. What makes no sense to me and to some others I read here and elsewhere, is that someone can offer or even hand another a gift, but the receiver doesn't do anything to agree to or reach out to receive it. It seems like theological tradition overriding practicality.



Again, please stop telling me what I'm trying to do, especially that I'm trying to be eisegetical, which is the last thing I'm trying to do with God's Word. Eisegesis vs. exegesis was the first thing I got straight with my first Greek professor in response to my first question when the semester began.

I usually quote the NKJ but only because I got used to doing searches in it. If you have a different preference, I'm happy to look at it. I don't think it's productive to quote Greek texts on these threads, so I'll bring out the Greek or respond to it as necessary. I'll add info or change words to be more literal or will elaborate a range of meaning if I think it's helpful.

NKJ John 6:27 "Do not labor (work) for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

• Jesus is talking to unbelievers who were following Him around when He was on the earth. So, His command is to them and we are looking for principles that may apply to others including us.
• Jesus commands them to not work for the food which perishes or the perishing food.
• When Jesus says "but" (alla) He effectively repeats the command to not work and changes it to a positive command to work for the food which remains/lasts into/for eternal life which (eternal life) the Son of Man will give to you (the unbelievers)...

It seems like we're saying the same thing - that Jesus is commanding them to work for food which will last. So, how is this not a command from Jesus to work for food which in context is His teaching?

How am I eisegeting but you're not changing or deleting or reading past Jesus' words?

We can start here. Please bring out anything you think makes your case.

I'm going to break up these posts to attempt to not intermix topics.

1. You did not take context into account. You just posted a verse with no context and gave what you think it means
2. I disagree with what you are saying, because proper hermeneutics demands we not only are required to take context. But take into account who he was talking to and why.

I ask you again.

WHAT WORK DO YOU NEED TO DO TO GET SAVED?

can you answer what specific works you believe we must do?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

And btw ..... walking in the Spirit does not "earn" salvation.

Walking in the Spirit shows that person genuinely belongs to God though as the Holy Spirit is the seal given to us. If you've continually resisted and departed from walking with the Holy Spirit to the end and died, you're no longer qualified to be saved, even if you continued to go to church, read your Bible, and socialize in Christian circles.


Paul did not seem to think the original belief of the Corinthians would profit them if they did not continue in the faith. Paul says they would have believed in vain if they do not hold fast to what he preached to them.

In John 8:31 Jesus said to the Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. We must continue in the faith as Hebrews 3:6 and 14 also tells us.

We are his house, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ~ Hebrews 3:6

We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. ~ Hebrews 3:14


And you don't seem to want to do that. This is why I've said that OSAS people don't want to abide or walk in the Spirit because they don't want God to be the Lord of their lives. They still want to do things their own way, but want God's salvation for the at the same time. You won't get that. It just doesn't work that way.


🚁

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I love you but this is just outright wrong

If you do not repent. You will never come to God in faith

If you never come to God in faith. you will not be saved.

so there is no OSAS without repentance. and to say it is easy. all we have to do is look at these threads. if OSAS was so easy it would be one of the largest followings in the christian faith. But that is not the case.. All religions worldwide believe in NOSAS.. include much of christianity. it is the most prevelant belief system

I know God personally and what the Bible says so I'm not put off by what you say. I used to be OSAS until God woke me up. He told me to stop ignoring the non-OSAS verses and pay attention to what they really said. So I BELIEVED GOD and lived out this faith (so it's not just head knowledge or mere agreement). Then He taught me not to resist the Holy Spirit and that if I do that, I will be empowered to live an obedient and godly life so that is no longer I but the Holy Spirit living in me. So when I SUBMITTED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, any work done is no longer by my flesh, but by the Holy Spirit.


What you say isn't true. A lot of Christians now believe in OSAS in the West and that's why Christianity is so watered down where Christians aren't much different from the world or just look godly but without Holy Spirit power - the so-called virgins without oil for their lamps. Just look at the posts here - the majority is actually OSAS and it will continue to grow, making way for the Great Apostasy.


🚁

 

[studier]

But its not a work of merit. I can not boast because I trusted in someone else.

I boast when I work to earn my own way.

I'm not going backwards too much to try to understand what some of these threads are. I think I've been clear enough about this concept of merit and boasting you're focused on. If not, feel free to ask to clarify.

Why can't you answer me? Do you believe you merit salvation by your works of obedience. or not?

If you do. which works?

I think merit and salvation is a broader discussion and that much theological teaching has clouded the reality that Salvation is a process that is entered into, progressed in, and completed.

I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Rom4 re: work and debt vs. grace and belief. And I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Eph2 re: grace, saved, and God's gift vs. man's works and boasting.

Part of the lengthier discussion we'll end up having, assuming we do, is about your phrase "works of obedience" I've highlighted. My question for you is: Is obedience works? I'd develop this within a discussion re: Faith.

Which ones do you need? I use Logos Bible software. I have easily accessable commentaires. lexicons. Dictionaries etc etc.

here is an example on my phone (it is more indepth on my computer when i am at home)

When you provide a definition or explanation of a Greek word, just provide the name of the Lexicon or Dictionary you're taking from. I have Logos as well but still prefer to work from Bibleworks which I've used for 2-3 decades. I pretty well loaded it up with options before they ceased operations, so I have several Lexicons resident and some other references in the Logos library I purchased and have periodically added to. I don't use commentaries much. If I do such research,
I'll typically go to Journals articles.

I have no idea what your even talking about here.

I am talking about faith

do i trust you. or do I merely just believe you

If I trust you, I will tend to show that trust by doing things you say because i trust you.

if I just believe you but do not really trust you. I will tend to not do anything you say.

Understood. Again, we can come back to it if it becomes important.

Did I talk about any type of belief that does not do anything?

Or are you just going off what you have been told I believe?

I can't tell. That's why I gave you the little + and = formulas that you didn't understand. You seem to go back and forth but maybe it's just mutual misunderstanding.

I'm reading what you say.

Ok WHAT WORK?

are you afraid to say it? What works do I have to do? They asked that same question. and jesus answered them

"it is the work of God that you believe"

Sure, I'm afraid of what you can say on a keyboard... Where do you get this weak stuff?

Explain the words and grammar of John6:27-29. What does Jesus mean in 6:29 in context?

I'll be bypassing your weak rhetoric and look for something that may be meaningful. As I said earlier, why apologize for rudeness when you've just been rude and now are being rude again? Are you sure 40 years in the Faith was not a typo?

Skipping over some of your nonsense, it looks like you've done some work on some Scripture. I'll get back to that when I return to the computer.

In the meantime, please loose the dude, lol, yawn crap. Or don't and I'll just read past it to see if you have any meaningful content. You're not the only one on these threads that uses such base tactics.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I'm not going backwards too much to try to understand what some of these threads are. I think I've been clear enough about this concept of merit and boasting you're focused on. If not, feel free to ask to clarify.



I think merit and salvation is a broader discussion and that much theological teaching has clouded the reality that Salvation is a process that is entered into, progressed in, and completed.

I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Rom4 re: work and debt vs. grace and belief. And I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Eph2 re: grace, saved, and God's gift vs. man's works and boasting.

Part of the lengthier discussion we'll end up having, assuming we do, is about your phrase "works of obedience" I've highlighted. My question for you is: Is obedience works? I'd develop this within a discussion re: Faith.



When you provide a definition or explanation of a Greek word, just provide the name of the Lexicon or Dictionary you're taking from. I have Logos as well but still prefer to work from Bibleworks which I've used for 2-3 decades. I pretty well loaded it up with options before they ceased operations, so I have several Lexicons resident and some other references in the Logos library I purchased and have periodically added to. I don't use commentaries much. If I do such research,
I'll typically go to Journals articles.



Understood. Again, we can come back to it if it becomes important.



I can't tell. That's why I gave you the little + and = formulas that you didn't understand. You seem to go back and forth but maybe it's just mutual misunderstanding.

I'm reading what you say.



Sure, I'm afraid of what you can say on a keyboard... Where do you get this weak stuff?

Explain the words and grammar of John6:27-29. What does Jesus mean in 6:29 in context?

I'll be bypassing your weak rhetoric and look for something that may be meaningful. As I said earlier, why apologize for rudeness when you've just been rude and now are being rude again? Are you sure 40 years in the Faith was not a typo?

Skipping over some of your nonsense, it looks like you've done some work on some Scripture. I'll get back to that when I return to the computer.

In the meantime, please loose the dude, lol, yawn crap. Or don't and I'll just read past it to see if you have any meaningful content. You're not the only one on these threads that uses such base tactics.

You have to watch out for their tactics. You write VERY CLEARLY on your Non-OSAS stance. So what they'll do is completely ignore what you wrote - which is really edifying honestly (thank you so much!) - and they will just make false accusations to distract you from having answered the issues well.

Don't let them bog your message down because then it gets muddy so that other readers will lose track of your points. That's what they want.

How I deal with it is I just post a few messages - however much God wants me to write and what He wants me to write and then leave it there because God will direct the right people to your post so that they will in turn be encouraged, refreshed and edified.

That's the main goal. I don't actually write to or for these OSAS people. Until they repent and turn to the Lord, nothing I'm writing here will help them. But it's going to help the non-OSAS believers or would-be non-OSAS believers in the future.


🚁

 

[Believer08]

You have to watch out for their tactics. You write VERY CLEARLY on your Non-OSAS stance. So what they'll do is completely ignore what you wrote - which is really edifying honestly (thank you so much!) - and they will just make false accusations to distract you from having answered the issues well.

Don't let them bog your message down because then it gets muddy so that other readers will lose track of your points. That's what they want.

How I deal with it is I just post a few messages - however much God wants me to write and what He wants me to write and then leave it there because God will direct the right people to your post so that they will in turn be encouraged, refreshed and edified.

That's the main goal. I don't actually write to or for these OSAS people. Until they repent and turn to the Lord, nothing I'm writing here will help them. But it's going to help the non-OSAS believers or would-be non-OSAS believers in the future.


🚁

Great advice.

 

[GWH]

It takes two to tango—or to tangle.

 

[BillG]

I love you but this is just outright wrong

If you do not repent. You will never come to God in faith

If you never come to God in faith. you will not be saved.

so there is no OSAS without repentance. and to say it is easy. all we have to do is look at these threads. if OSAS was so easy it would be one of the largest followings in the christian faith. But that is not the case.. All religions worldwide believe in NOSAS.. include much of christianity. it is the most prevelant belief system

It’s disgusting how people accuse people who they don’t even know of things things are not true.
They don’t even ask people what they think.

To accuse someone who believes in OSAS that they do don’t need to repent and can sin all they want is tantamount to slander.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I know God personally and what the Bible says so I'm not put off by what you say. I used to be OSAS until God woke me up. He told me to stop ignoring the non-OSAS verses and pay attention to what they really said. So I BELIEVED GOD and lived out this faith (so it's not just head knowledge or mere agreement). Then He taught me not to resist the Holy Spirit and that if I do that, I will be empowered to live an obedient and godly life so that is no longer I but the Holy Spirit living in me. So when I SUBMITTED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, any work done is no longer by my flesh, but by the Holy Spirit.


What you say isn't true. A lot of Christians now believe in OSAS in the West and that's why Christianity is so watered down where Christians aren't much different from the world or just look godly but without Holy Spirit power - the so-called virgins without oil for their lamps. Just look at the posts here - the majority is actually OSAS and it will continue to grow, making way for the Great Apostasy.


🚁

I am sorry you feel this way sis.

Just because some people may use it against its intended vision. does not mean that the vision is wrong.

OSAS is just another term for eternal life. being secure in Christ. or having the seal of God as our pledge until the day we are redeemed.

The apostacy is that somehow we have to earn salvation. No matter what people say. People who says the gift of eternal life. which God gave us, can be lost. Well if this gift can be lost. it is not eternal is it? So why did God give us a thing he said we would have forever. and not mean it?

What did you believe about OSAS.. I ask. because I find it hard to believe someone who truly believed in the security of Christ would repent from that view and turn to another view. So i am just trying to understand what happened

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm not going backwards too much to try to understand what some of these threads are. I think I've been clear enough about this concept of merit and boasting you're focused on. If not, feel free to ask to clarify.



I think merit and salvation is a broader discussion and that much theological teaching has clouded the reality that Salvation is a process that is entered into, progressed in, and completed.

I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Rom4 re: work and debt vs. grace and belief. And I understand and agree with Paul's instruction in Eph2 re: grace, saved, and God's gift vs. man's works and boasting.

Part of the lengthier discussion we'll end up having, assuming we do, is about your phrase "works of obedience" I've highlighted. My question for you is: Is obedience works? I'd develop this within a discussion re: Faith.



When you provide a definition or explanation of a Greek word, just provide the name of the Lexicon or Dictionary you're taking from. I have Logos as well but still prefer to work from Bibleworks which I've used for 2-3 decades. I pretty well loaded it up with options before they ceased operations, so I have several Lexicons resident and some other references in the Logos library I purchased and have periodically added to. I don't use commentaries much. If I do such research,
I'll typically go to Journals articles.



Understood. Again, we can come back to it if it becomes important.



I can't tell. That's why I gave you the little + and = formulas that you didn't understand. You seem to go back and forth but maybe it's just mutual misunderstanding.

I'm reading what you say.



Sure, I'm afraid of what you can say on a keyboard... Where do you get this weak stuff?

Explain the words and grammar of John6:27-29. What does Jesus mean in 6:29 in context?

I'll be bypassing your weak rhetoric and look for something that may be meaningful. As I said earlier, why apologize for rudeness when you've just been rude and now are being rude again? Are you sure 40 years in the Faith was not a typo?

Skipping over some of your nonsense, it looks like you've done some work on some Scripture. I'll get back to that when I return to the computer.

In the meantime, please loose the dude, lol, yawn crap. Or don't and I'll just read past it to see if you have any meaningful content. You're not the only one on these threads that uses such base tactics.

You still have not answered.

WHAT WORKS DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED?

I am not responding to anything else you say until you answer this question.

If you do not want to answer. Just say so. But if you will just answer. then I think alot of our discussion will be resolved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It’s disgusting how people accuse people who they don’t even know of things things are not true.
They don’t even ask people what they think.

To accuse someone who believes in OSAS that they do don’t need to repent and can sin all they want is tantamount to slander.

its the go to argument to those who appose OSAS.

1. They do not have to repent
2. They can live in sin all they want.

I am sure the jews used this same argument when they crucified Christ for telling them the truth also.

 

[BillG]

its the go to argument to those who appose OSAS.

1. They do not have to repent
2. They can live in sin all they want.

I am sure the jews used this same argument when they crucified Christ for telling them the truth also.

What’s annoying is that they obviously don’t think we have read that Paul dealt with in Romans 5-6. Those using grace as license to sin.

“Shall we sin more so grace abounds more?
By no means, certainly not.

He deals with the majority of this in Romans 6.

To assume we don’t give two hoots is judging, they will be judged for it.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What’s annoying is that they obviously don’t think we have read that Paul dealt with in Romans 5-6. Those using grace as license to sin.

“Shall we sin more so grace abounds more?
By no means, certainly not.

He deals with the majority of this in Romans 6.

To assume we don’t give two hoots is judging, they will be judged for it.

its also silly

if we have repented. we have acknowledged it was because of our sin we were seperated from God and headed to hell

so why would we repent in faith and agree with this

then want to return to our vomit that killed us to begin with?

it makes no sense.

 

[Kroogz]

You still have not answered.

WHAT WORKS DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED?

That is the key question. It cannot be answered from the loss of salvation/maintain salvation crowd.......It's completely and totally subjective. Everyone from this crowd has a different answer. No solid ground.

Objective truth. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Never perish. No condemnation. Eternal life. Sealed. Nothing separates us. Never forsaken. ALWAYS have an advocate......