No, viewing God as sending babies to hell does not jibe with being loving and just, so the only possibilities that jibe with God's nature and the need for imputed righteousness are either that they simply pass out of existence or else they are judged on the basis of God's foreknowledge regarding what they would have done/believed if they had survived into the stage of accountability.
Some of the OT can be hard to stomach
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That's all based on speculation and a wrong understanding of the attributes of God. God must always act righteously, but acting righteously doesn't mean one must act lovingly.
I believe we had this conversation before, but didn't you tell me before that is was a loving act on God's part to cast someone into the lake of fire?
I believe we had this conversation before, but didn't you tell me before that is was a loving act on God's part to cast someone into the lake of fire?
Well, maybe I need to share my Bible-based rationale regarding hell again:
A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.
God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.
God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
James 2:13- "for the Lord shall have judgment without mercy that hath showed no mercy & mercy rejoiceth against judgement". yes, difficult to grasp but remember, no matter how much we try we will never understand God's ways. if God or Jesus were here on earth & we asked Him this question, His answer would make total sense by way of His perfect wisdom. in the meantime, all we can do is consult an O.T. pro or even someone who is a specialist on this category. for example, there are Revelation experts, healing experts, Rapture & Tribulation experts & so on. i wonder about issues & if i never find the answer, i implement this: "if you don't understand something, trust it"!
This is true, and I'm not at all trying to argue that point at all. The Bible is not explicitly clear about what happens to babies when they die. Agreed.
How ever the rest of the bible does go on to tell us how our God is as far as justice, mercy, sacrifice, and love, and now having been born again, I also know exactly what He's forgiven this sinner for, so it is no stretch for me to believe we will see these babies alive and worshipping like all the rest in Him.
That said, it is not explicitly stated in the Bible, so is just my "nice thought" ultimately.
How ever the rest of the bible does go on to tell us how our God is as far as justice, mercy, sacrifice, and love, and now having been born again, I also know exactly what He's forgiven this sinner for, so it is no stretch for me to believe we will see these babies alive and worshipping like all the rest in Him.
That said, it is not explicitly stated in the Bible, so is just my "nice thought" ultimately.
Well, please permit me to try one more time by focusing on the parts of my post most pertinent to that belief before you prefer to be a robot:
The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return/reflect His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus, permitting humans to be volitional or have MFW is loving.
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different just consequences for choosing them. Choosing good justly results in blessing, life and heaven, which is called love of righteousness; and choosing evil or loving wickedness justly results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). By providing this choice God loves humanity, and He is grieved when souls make the wrong choice (cf. MT 23:37).
This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is BOTH the loving AND just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord hates himself and is spiritually separated from God (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). It is loving for God to separate the sheep from the goats (MT 25:31-46), or else heavenly history would repeat what happened on earth.
The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return/reflect His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus, permitting humans to be volitional or have MFW is loving.
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different just consequences for choosing them. Choosing good justly results in blessing, life and heaven, which is called love of righteousness; and choosing evil or loving wickedness justly results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). By providing this choice God loves humanity, and He is grieved when souls make the wrong choice (cf. MT 23:37).
This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is BOTH the loving AND just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord hates himself and is spiritually separated from God (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). It is loving for God to separate the sheep from the goats (MT 25:31-46), or else heavenly history would repeat what happened on earth.
Not interested. Your posts have begun to misrepresent my positions and insinuate or state things that I don't believe. Take your first paragraph...before you prefer to be a robot. Patently false and indicative of the fact that you don't actually understand my arguments.
Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.
Appreciate the discussion. Grace and peace.
Well, please allow me as a former English teacher to point out that I did not ACCUSE you of preferring to be a robot but rather said that I wanted to explain the rationale for believing hell is good and loving BEFORE you decided not having MFW is preferable.
Not only do I not understand your arguments, I don't even seeing you making a constructive alternative argument for how hell can jibe with God's love and justness.
Not only do I not understand your arguments, I don't even seeing you making a constructive alternative argument for how hell can jibe with God's love and justness.
God destroyed His entire creation with the flood, anything after that seems trivial in comparison.
We are but His creation and our sustainer. We have no meaning or purpose outside of His will. I will not attempt to understand something so immense.
Romans 4:17
(as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.
I will not question anything so powerful and insightful.
Romans 5:8
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.
But I will put my trust in the will of a God who has such love for His creation.
I will worship God because He is God.
On the issue of being able to stomach certain verses remember that God does not see death as the end of existence but the next step of their journey.
God is merciful to both man and animals.
Jonah 4:11
So may I not care about the great city of Nineveh, which has more than a hundred twenty thousand people who cannot distinguish between their right and their left, as well as many animals?”
We are but His creation and our sustainer. We have no meaning or purpose outside of His will. I will not attempt to understand something so immense.
Romans 4:17
(as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were.
I will not question anything so powerful and insightful.
Romans 5:8
But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.
But I will put my trust in the will of a God who has such love for His creation.
I will worship God because He is God.
On the issue of being able to stomach certain verses remember that God does not see death as the end of existence but the next step of their journey.
God is merciful to both man and animals.
Jonah 4:11
So may I not care about the great city of Nineveh, which has more than a hundred twenty thousand people who cannot distinguish between their right and their left, as well as many animals?”
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I don't find any of the OT hard to stomach.
I find some of it hard to explain to an unbeliever, but none of it bothers me whatsoever.
If you start with the Biblical presuppositions that God is omniscient, and he is perfect in both love AND justice...
then you have to immediately conclude that God has good reasons for whatever he does.
.
I find some of it hard to explain to an unbeliever, but none of it bothers me whatsoever.
If you start with the Biblical presuppositions that God is omniscient, and he is perfect in both love AND justice...
then you have to immediately conclude that God has good reasons for whatever he does.
.
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