A misconception of obedience

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Jan 27, 2025
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#1
Quite often, Christians will get accused of relying on themselves instead of Christ, since they believe one must obey Him (Heb. 5:9). They get accused by other people who identify as Christians, who believe in salvation by faith alone. These individuals who make this unfounded objection say this since Christians believe one must obey the commandments of Jesus (John 14:15).

Is this true? Do Christians (members of the church/body of Christ) rely on themselves for salvation and put hope in themselves apart from God?

No, it’s not true. We aren’t relying on ourselves to save ourselves by ourselves. It’s the exact opposite…we are simply trusting in God to save us as we obey Him (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21). If the opposite is true, then we can be saved by God by going our own way by being ignorant of God’s righteousness, as we try to establish our own righteousness, but such runs contrary to the Bible (Prov. 12:15, Prov. 16:25, Jer. 10:23; Rom. 10:3)

Was Noah trusting in himself and the ark to save him and his family when he built an ark (Gen. 6; Heb. 11:7)? Was Naaman trusted in himself to save himself from his leprosy, as well as trusting in the water when he dipped in the Jordan river (2 Kings 5:10-14)? Was the blind man trusting in himself when he went to wash in the pool of Siloam (John 9:7-11)? Were the ones of Israel who looked to the bronze serpent on Moses’ pole trusting in themselves (Num. 21:9)? Was Israel trusting in themselves or their works as they marched around the walls of Jericho (Jos. 6:15-20)? In all the examples, as they trusted to submit to the commandments of God, would they have been trusting in their own works of obedience? Or would they have been trusting in God by taking Him at His word by obeying Him?

When we follow the holy, authoritative commands found in God's Word, we are not saving ourselves on our own merit. When we follow God's commands, He saves us. We should be thankful that He has graciously given us commands which save, instead of commands which condemn, as He is a God of salvation (Deut. 32:15; 2 Sam. 22:3; 2 Sam. 22:47; Ps. 25:5; Acts 28:28; Rom. 1:16; 1 Tim. 2:4, etc etc). We should be grateful that He has warned us about what we need to avoid in this life to avoid eternal condemnation (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 6:1; Rom. 6:12; 1 John 3:10).

When we become a Christian and continue to follow Jesus, it isn’t showing how good we are, it’s showing how good He is (Jhn 10:11, 14, 27-28). Following Jesus doesn’t point back to our own righteousness, it points to His (Rom. 5:17, 21). Following Jesus isn’t looking to self for salvation, it’s looking to Him, the author and finisher of faith (Heb. 12:2). Following Jesus isn’t making ourselves the captain of our salvation, it’s Jesus who is the captain (Heb. 2:10). We obey God out of a love, faith, and out of having gratitude that we are saved in Christ. We have reverential love for Him (Gal. 5:6), and it’s by His grace which instructs (Titus 2:11-12). Living for God is trusting God. Living a godly lifestyle is not making it about our “works”. It's trusting in Christ’s work by making it about Him by being conformed to His image (Rom. 8:29). All of our good works we do and living faithfully is not making it all about ourselves but about God, as we are His workmanship (Eph. 2:10). Living a Christian life affirms our love to Christ (John 14:15, 15:14). It affirms our devotion to Him. His love compels us (2 Cor. 5:14) to do so and God’s grace is the instructor (Titus 2:11-12). By His grace, He has showed us how.

All of this is confirmation of having a saving faith in Christ, and is confirmation that we have and are surrendering our lives to Him by allowing Him to be the Lord and King over our lives. It is not our works that makes us righteousness (Titus 3:5). It is our faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).

Living a godly lifestyle is not making it about your “works”. It's trusting in Christ’s work by making it about Him by being conformed to His image (Rom. 8:29). The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, as well as what He has commanded us to do to be saved by Him. All of those are God ordained commandments/works which Jesus taught and which the Spirit revealed to the Apostles, to teach us how to be saved by His grace.

It’s not placing hope in ourselves, but rather, hope in God, as when we live faithfully. That is how we let our light shine so that others may see Him in us (Matt. 5:16). That is why God gets all the glory (Psalm 29:2, Phil 2:13). His grace tells us that we can’t live in sin any longer (Rom. 6:1). It teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12) and teaches us to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior (2 Peter 3:18).

Just as in Moses day, the ones who looked to the pole of Moses that had a bronze serpent on it for physical healing when they got bit by a snake (Numbers 21:8-9..although the bronze serpent in and of itself did not heal them, God did), we must look to the cross of Jesus Christ that had the Lord of lords and King of kings for spiritual healing. Just as Naaman submitted to the Jordan River for physical healing (2 Kings 5:14), we must submit to water baptism for the remission of sins for spiritual healing by the blood of Christ (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Matt. 26:28).

By looking to the God of heaven, the cross of Christ, searching the sword of the Spirit, we learn that God has given us conditions to be spiritually healed. We are to believe in God the Father and God the Son, Christ (John 3:16, 8:24, 5:24). We are to repent (Acts 17:30). We are to confess our faith in Jesus (Acts 8:37, Romans 10:9-10). We are to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are to follow Jesus (John 10:27). We are to do the Father’s will (Matt. 7:21). We are to walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:25).

Obedience to God is founded in grace (Titus 2:11-12) and love (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The same grace that saved us (Eph. 2:8) is also the same grace that motivates, instructs, and warns us not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1, 12-18ff). Grace teaches us (Titus 2:11-12) not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1), and has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus brought us salvation. On the cross, He died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15), and He brought us a soul saving message to all through His sacrifice, His words, His apostles and disciples. All of that is grace and is how His grace that has brought salvation has appeared to all men. In having mercy upon us, He saved us by His grace which also instructs us, not only how to be saved, but also how to live such a life that we can walk worthy of our calling as a Christian to glorify God (Ti. 3:5, Ti. 2:11; Eph. 2:8, 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:20).

The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)

Let us “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43) by allowing the grace-given instructions of Christ to teach us where we are living the life that is “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age” (Titus 2:11). God’s revealed will was given to us by Jesus. By grace, He instructs us to do the Father’s will (Titus 2:11-12; Mt. 7:21). Meeting the conditions of the One who first offers the commands and bestows the grace is not earning anything. It’s simply desiring His will over your own.

God's grace is what helps me overcome my sin, not why I sin.

God has a will for man to obey to be saved. As we do His will, it is obeying the work OF God. They are His works, which He gives to us to do. Those works are designed by HIM, not us. We are not saving ourselves by ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands. Everything which God has revealed to us through His word to be saved is grace. It’s dripping with grace and love. The Bible in the Old Testament and New Testament is full of commandments and conditional statements that God has freely given in order to receive what God freely gives. All of this is by God’s grace, as He has given instructions on how to receive what He freely gives.

These people who accuse the body of Christ outright refuse to understand that we are not saving ourselves BY ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands that we read in His Word. Nor do they understand that we are not saving ourselves BY ourselves when we are obeying God. Does God save when we live in disobedience or when one lives in accordance with His will in obedience. The fact they make an issue of God saving people when they obey is disturbing. Do they think God will save people who REFUSE His WILL?
 

Giblets

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2018
3
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#4
We obey God BECAUSE he saves us, not to be saved.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them"​
2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”​
John 3:3 E"xcept a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"​

After salvation good works follow.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".​
Matt 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit".​
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#5
We obey God BECAUSE he saves us, not to be saved.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them"​
2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”​
John 3:3 E"xcept a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"​

After salvation good works follow.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".​
Matt 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit".​
True or False: One must be born again to be saved (Jn 3:5; cf. Acts 2:38, 40, 47; Titus 3:5).

True or False: One must believe to be saved (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved (Jn. 8:31).

True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved (Jn 10:27).

True or False: One must have faith to be saved (see passages from number 2).

True or False: One must walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7).

True or False: We are to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22; Col. 1:23)

True or False: We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)

True or False: We are to obey Jesus to be saved (Heb. 5:9)

True or False: We are to do the will of the Father to be saved (Mt. 7:21)

True or False: We are to obey the faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26)

True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in the faith is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Believing and obeying the gospel is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying Jesus is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Doing the will of the Father is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying the Faith is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first eleven, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.

Can a Christian go to heaven without obedience? No.

If one says they were never a Christian, it will be because they aren’t living like one, thus, a condition has been set, and my point remains.

Take away any form of obedience to God…will someone be saved by His grace?

Surely you will say no, which goes back to my original point, or else it is universalism or Calvinism. Thus, a condition has been set to receive His amazing grace.

Take away His grace…will someone be saved by obedience? No. As no one can obey perfectly.

Thus, one must have obedience to God to receive His grace.

If one was to argue that obedience is the fruit of having salvation, then you still have made it a condition upon having fruit of salvation upon obedience, or else they’d have no evidence of having salvation.

So, once again, either way you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition. Or else it’s universalism or Calvinism.

One cannot separate faith from obedience. Would a true saving faith have obedience? Yes. What’s the condition of a true saving faith? Obedience. So, if one doesn’t obey, then does that mean they don’t have true saving faith? If the answer is yes (and it is) then there’s a condition. Again, no matter what scenario or statement you or anyone says, there will always be a condition of either being saved, or, someone will say never being saved since they didn’t have evidence, which means there’s a condition. If there’s no condition, then all are saved. Case closed.

Having said all that, there is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.
 

Giblets

Junior Member
Apr 20, 2018
3
3
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#6
I would argue Augustinian's theology that all of salvation is due to God's grace alone. Obedience is not a means to earn salvation, but rather a response to the grace God has already bestowed, signifying a complete reliance on God's mercy and a willingness to surrender one's will to His, making obedience a vital expression of faith and a necessary component of the Christian life, not a requirement for salvation itself; essentially, one is saved by God's grace alone, and obedience is a natural outcome of that grace received.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#8
Jesus saves (Acts 4:10-12). He has been given all authority (Mt. 28:18). All authority gives Him the right to set the grace-given conditions which we did not earn, as they came from Him of what one must do to be saved (Jn 3:5, 16, Acts 2:37-28, 9:6, 16:31-34, 22:16, Rom. 10:9-13).

If one seeks to rely on their own goodness as the source of getting in heaven, then they will be let down every single time. If one believes they can earn their way into heaven based on their own merit, then they are sadly mistaken. When one seeks to rely and follow the ultimate source of goodness— Jesus, to get to heaven (John 10:27-28; Heb. 12:1-2) by keeping their eyes on Him in allowing His word to reign and have dominion in their life, then they are looking to Him for salvation, instead of self.
 
Apr 7, 2024
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#9
Quite often, Christians will get accused of relying on themselves instead of Christ, since they believe one must obey Him (Heb. 5:9). They get accused by other people who identify as Christians, who believe in salvation by faith alone. These individuals who make this unfounded objection say this since Christians believe one must obey the commandments of Jesus (John 14:15).

Is this true? Do Christians (members of the church/body of Christ) rely on themselves for salvation and put hope in themselves apart from God? No, it’s not true. We aren’t relying on ourselves to save ourselves by ourselves. It’s the exact opposite…we are simply trusting in God to save us as we obey Him (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21).
I admit that I did not read the entire opening post, but I read enough to get the gist of it. I can try to help you understand something about why demands for obedience for salvation are seen as relying on oneself instead of Christ. The answer has two parts.

First, obedience is good as far as it goes, but it can't take a person over the finish line. Why? Because all people sin and fall short of the glory of God. As a result, no person will cross the finish line apart from all his failures to obey being forgiven. Except in terms of eternal rewards and the fruitfulness of a life well lived, there is no material difference between one person who crosses the finish line with many sins forgiven and another person who crosses the finish line with only a few sins forgiven. Well, the one who is forgiven more also loves the Lord more (Luke 7:43). Painting the finish line as if it depends on works ignores the fact that perfect obedience without any failures whatsoever is the only way that salvation by obedience can be accomplished -- and nobody is able to do that (Ga 3:10-12).

Second, the idea that our trust in God to save us is because of our obedience is by definition reliance on one's own ability to carry out the mission. Saying that the ability to accomplish the mission is a gift of God's grace does not make the idea God-centered. It is still man-centered because God cannot be blamed for any failures that may occur. As a result, those who fail to obey every single command of God are personally responsible for their failures to obey and are subject to the consequences. By implication, those who always avail themselves of God's grace and never stumble can say that they are not personally irresponsible with the grace bestowed upon them. This is in line with Romans 4:2, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."
 
Jan 30, 2025
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#10
Assurance through works is faith in oneself, not faith in God.

The seal of redemption is our peace, and the works testify of the gift that is salvation. Works are but gestures, to motion others to accept that selfsame gift. Not an achievement or an accomplishment, just love, for the joy of loving.

If the strength of the law is established in my unrepentant heart, the commandments are far more prominent in my life than the royal law which is love. But if I'm attentive to those things which there is no law against, the law is no more for me, but the sinner that I was, before I took receipt of the Lord's mercy.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
7,300
2,916
113
#11
Assurance through works is faith in oneself, not faith in God.

The seal of redemption is our peace, and the works testify of the gift that is salvation. Works are but gestures, to motion others to accept that selfsame gift. Not an achievement or an accomplishment, just love, for the joy of loving.

If the strength of the law is established in my unrepentant heart, the commandments are far more prominent in my life than the royal law which is love. But if I'm attentive to those things which there is no law against, the law is no more for me, but the sinner that I was, before I took receipt of the Lord's mercy.
Amen and clarified, whereby we can now fully state there is no misconception.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,187
1,090
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#12
True or False: One must be born again to be saved (Jn 3:5; cf. Acts 2:38, 40, 47; Titus 3:5).

True or False: One must believe to be saved (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved (Jn. 8:31).

True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved (Jn 10:27).

True or False: One must have faith to be saved (see passages from number 2).

True or False: One must walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7).

True or False: We are to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22; Col. 1:23)

True or False: We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)

True or False: We are to obey Jesus to be saved (Heb. 5:9)

True or False: We are to do the will of the Father to be saved (Mt. 7:21)

True or False: We are to obey the faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26)

True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in the faith is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Believing and obeying the gospel is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying Jesus is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Doing the will of the Father is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying the Faith is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first eleven, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.

Can a Christian go to heaven without obedience? No.

If one says they were never a Christian, it will be because they aren’t living like one, thus, a condition has been set, and my point remains.

Take away any form of obedience to God…will someone be saved by His grace?

Surely you will say no, which goes back to my original point, or else it is universalism or Calvinism. Thus, a condition has been set to receive His amazing grace.

Take away His grace…will someone be saved by obedience? No. As no one can obey perfectly.

Thus, one must have obedience to God to receive His grace.

If one was to argue that obedience is the fruit of having salvation, then you still have made it a condition upon having fruit of salvation upon obedience, or else they’d have no evidence of having salvation.

So, once again, either way you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition. Or else it’s universalism or Calvinism.

One cannot separate faith from obedience. Would a true saving faith have obedience? Yes. What’s the condition of a true saving faith? Obedience. So, if one doesn’t obey, then does that mean they don’t have true saving faith? If the answer is yes (and it is) then there’s a condition. Again, no matter what scenario or statement you or anyone says, there will always be a condition of either being saved, or, someone will say never being saved since they didn’t have evidence, which means there’s a condition. If there’s no condition, then all are saved. Case closed.

Having said all that, there is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed.
Wow you come into the "conversation" like an obnoxious leftist. I'm not even getting into if I agree or disagree or if I think you're wrong or right here, but the way you present it as if your above everyone, looking down on the class teaching everyone else, and anyone who disagrees can get bent. It is very off putting in my opinion. Why do you try to start a conversation about something you don't want to hear an opposing viewpoint on and are completely convince in your own mind of already? What's the point?
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#13
I admit that I did not read the entire opening post, but I read enough to get the gist of it. I can try to help you understand something about why demands for obedience for salvation are seen as relying on oneself instead of Christ. The answer has two parts.

First, obedience is good as far as it goes, but it can't take a person over the finish line. Why? Because all people sin and fall short of the glory of God. As a result, no person will cross the finish line apart from all his failures to obey being forgiven. Except in terms of eternal rewards and the fruitfulness of a life well lived, there is no material difference between one person who crosses the finish line with many sins forgiven and another person who crosses the finish line with only a few sins forgiven. Well, the one who is forgiven more also loves the Lord more (Luke 7:43). Painting the finish line as if it depends on works ignores the fact that perfect obedience without any failures whatsoever is the only way that salvation by obedience can be accomplished -- and nobody is able to do that (Ga 3:10-12).

Second, the idea that our trust in God to save us is because of our obedience is by definition reliance on one's own ability to carry out the mission. Saying that the ability to accomplish the mission is a gift of God's grace does not make the idea God-centered. It is still man-centered because God cannot be blamed for any failures that may occur. As a result, those who fail to obey every single command of God are personally responsible for their failures to obey and are subject to the consequences. By implication, those who always avail themselves of God's grace and never stumble can say that they are not personally irresponsible with the grace bestowed upon them. This is in line with Romans 4:2, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."
Obedience ≠ earning
Romans 4 is referring to works of the law. Not obedience to God.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#14
Due to the comments, it appears that my thread is right..there is indeed misconception of obedience…
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#15
I admit that I did not read the entire opening post, but I read enough to get the gist of it. I can try to help you understand something about why demands for obedience for salvation are seen as relying on oneself instead of Christ. The answer has two parts.

First, obedience is good as far as it goes, but it can't take a person over the finish line. Why? Because all people sin and fall short of the glory of God. As a result, no person will cross the finish line apart from all his failures to obey being forgiven. Except in terms of eternal rewards and the fruitfulness of a life well lived, there is no material difference between one person who crosses the finish line with many sins forgiven and another person who crosses the finish line with only a few sins forgiven. Well, the one who is forgiven more also loves the Lord more (Luke 7:43). Painting the finish line as if it depends on works ignores the fact that perfect obedience without any failures whatsoever is the only way that salvation by obedience can be accomplished -- and nobody is able to do that (Ga 3:10-12).

Second, the idea that our trust in God to save us is because of our obedience is by definition reliance on one's own ability to carry out the mission. Saying that the ability to accomplish the mission is a gift of God's grace does not make the idea God-centered. It is still man-centered because God cannot be blamed for any failures that may occur. As a result, those who fail to obey every single command of God are personally responsible for their failures to obey and are subject to the consequences. By implication, those who always avail themselves of God's grace and never stumble can say that they are not personally irresponsible with the grace bestowed upon them. This is in line with Romans 4:2, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."
you are completely misunderstanding my thread…and are attributing things about it (and to myself) to which I never said or believe…yes, you have proved the threads point of there being misconception about obedience. Thanks.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#16
God has given all the ability to obey…obeying God is not trusting in our ability. It’s actually trusting in God..by relying on Him. Refusing to rely on Him out of fear that it’s earning is showing you do not love and trust Him. I have supplied multiple passage to prove it. It’s not my fault you refuse to understand.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#17
Obedience to Christ for salvation is relying on Christ. Not self. When on obeys Christ, they aren’t relying on self as they are not obeying their self. To say that obeying Christ is relying oneself is absurd.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#18
A lot of people get so afraid of earning salvation (an impossibility) that they equate obedience to Christ for salvation as earning.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#19
True or False: One must be born again to be saved (Jn 3:5; cf. Acts 2:38, 40, 47; Titus 3:5).

True or False: One must believe to be saved (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

True or False: One must continue in His word to be saved (Jn. 8:31).

True or False: One must follow Jesus to be saved (Jn 10:27).

True or False: One must have faith to be saved (see passages from number 2).

True or False: One must walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7).

True or False: We are to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22; Col. 1:23)

True or False: We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17)

True or False: We are to obey Jesus to be saved (Heb. 5:9)

True or False: We are to do the will of the Father to be saved (Mt. 7:21)

True or False: We are to obey the faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26)

True or False: Being born again is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Believing in Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in His word is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Following Jesus is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Having faith is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Walking in the light is disobeying Jesus.

True or False: Continuing in the faith is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Believing and obeying the gospel is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying Jesus is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Doing the will of the Father is disobeying Jesus

True or False: Obeying the Faith is disobeying Jesus.

If you answer True to any of the first eleven, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you answer False to any of the last, then you are making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say that a Christian is going to obey Jesus because they are saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

If you say those who do not obey were never saved, then you are still making obedience a condition for salvation.

So, no matter how you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition for salvation.

Can a Christian go to heaven without obedience? No.

If one says they were never a Christian, it will be because they aren’t living like one, thus, a condition has been set, and my point remains.

Take away any form of obedience to God…will someone be saved by His grace?

Surely you will say no, which goes back to my original point, or else it is universalism or Calvinism. Thus, a condition has been set to receive His amazing grace.

Take away His grace…will someone be saved by obedience? No. As no one can obey perfectly.

Thus, one must have obedience to God to receive His grace.

If one was to argue that obedience is the fruit of having salvation, then you still have made it a condition upon having fruit of salvation upon obedience, or else they’d have no evidence of having salvation.

So, once again, either way you slice it, you are left with obedience as a condition. Or else it’s universalism or Calvinism.

One cannot separate faith from obedience. Would a true saving faith have obedience? Yes. What’s the condition of a true saving faith? Obedience. So, if one doesn’t obey, then does that mean they don’t have true saving faith? If the answer is yes (and it is) then there’s a condition. Again, no matter what scenario or statement you or anyone says, there will always be a condition of either being saved, or, someone will say never being saved since they didn’t have evidence, which means there’s a condition. If there’s no condition, then all are saved. Case closed.

Having said all that, there is a sense in which obedience is proof of being saved. You shall know them by their fruits (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33), we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph. 2:10). Jesus's sacrifice is the remedy, the gospel is the remedy, and we accept the remedy by obedience. Like a doctor provides a remedy for a seriously deadly disease or poison - we have to follow the doctor's instructions and take the remedy as he prescribes if we want to be healed
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#20
Obedience to Christ for salvation does not equal in any way shape or form on one’s ability to save themselves or relying on self no more than all those examples I gave where they obeyed. Mercy…the lengths people will go to to get out of obedience is downright frightening.