The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

Actually, yes. Not necessarily the one who started the thread, but others who came along and posted an "Informational" icon, indicating that they had learned something new for them to study further.

MM

I use the Informative emoji as a general catch-all to say things like, I read this, I think this has good info in it (not that I've learned something),

 

[studier]

You need to read on, For the people asked Jesus after Jesus made that comment, what work they had to do. and jesus answered

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Our faith in Christ is the work of God. He draws us, He teaches us, He brings us to repentance. We can take no glory or credit for saving ourselves because we did not do any work of merit.

Thanks, but I have read on many times in many translations and in the Greek. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to receive His gift.

When we come to 6:28-29 we have some translational and interpretive work to do. These translations will show you a few things to consider - basically, what did Jesus mean? BTW, I have no issues with your last paragraph, but it does not erase what Jesus commanded in 6:27.

NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed (work) God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent."

I just went through this language issue on another thread. When we read the word "of" in these English versions we should know that there are 30+ ways to translate the wording in the Greek.

Also, in 6:29 where Jesus' reply begins with "This" He can be pointing forward or backward. So, Jesus can be pointing back to His command in 6:27 to work for the lasting food or He can be pointing forward to the last clause in 6:29.

Also, in the NKJ "that" where I have highlighted it in 6:29 could be the content pointed to by "This" in 6:29 or it could be the purpose of His command in 6:27.

We may not like these facts because we think we have all these things figured out while we sit and argue with each other about what the Text actually says and means, but we should note that translators still work on translations and see details differently as they do the work, which is still going on. I don't wait for the next version to argue about. I translate by myself and compare my findings.

We can go through these choices and paraphrase them if you'd like.

As them what? Did they make the golden serpent? Did they hang the serpent on the pole? did they raise it up so everyone could see it?

God did all the work and offered it to them for healing. God just asked them to trust him.

6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Num. 21:6-9 NKJ)

You asked me a few rhetorical questions. We can let Scripture answer each one of them. After Moses prayed, God answered Him and provided the solution. God commanded Moses and Moses did the work. Moses had to believe God and do what God commanded. The people had to believe God and do what God instructed - they had to look at the serpent on the [raised] pole if they wanted to live.

When we get these interpreted traditions imbedded in our thinking, we tend to eisegete or read past what Scripture actually says.

you work to merit a reward or a wage.. Salvation is not something we can merit. it is a gift. paid for in full by the giver, As jesus said, "it is finished" in the Greek literally "paid in full" "Tetelesti"

Jesus says unbelievers work for the [spiritual] food (teaching content to believe) that remains into eternal life. If Jesus commands this, and He does, and if Scripture says we don't merit wages to receive the gift of EL He gives, then the work to hear and learn the Gospel and believe, is not meritorious - not worthy of wages.

We just have to let Him explain how Salvation actually works and stop making things up.

Although tetelestai has a sense that can mean "paid" it is not its primary meaning, which is "finished," "completed." The payment for sins can be found elsewhere. Jesus finished the work our Father sent Him to do. He completed God's Salvation plan to the point of His death. After His resurrection that Plan was in place to pass on to us. We did nothing to make the Plan, complete the Plan, make it available to pass on, etc.. It is all of and from God.

This does not preclude Jesus from command unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel. The merit remains with the Planner, the Finisher, and the Giver.

Just let Him speak and explain what He's done and requires of us.

 

[studier]

sorry bro, we do no cooperate with God. that is a catholic ploy.

A gift giver gives you a gift. You have a option to recieve the gift in faith, or to reject it.

Recieve the gift in faith is no you cooperating with the giver, it is you freely receiving the gift the giver paid for.

You reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift.. And that's on you.

The only thing you will earn or merit as far as salvation gospel is condemnation.

I was taught the anti-Catholic mindset also. Much of it I retain. A few years back I had some discussions with a Protestant who had converted to Roman Catholic. His understanding of Salvation was excellent and puts many here to shame, bro.

Your understanding of Faith is lacking. We're commanded to believe. Our belief is obedience. Things like turning to the Lord and believing are active words, things we do in response to what God requires of us. Receive and reject are actions, like it or not. I've read works where men attempt to make Faith purely passive. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to hear and learn. Some say Faith Alone. In response others say Faith is never Alone

Merit already covered. God specifies what is meritorious. Men mess it up working too hard to protect against what they say is all error of Rome. Then they commit their own error swinging the pendulum too far in reaction.

If ones understanding inserts a contradiction. then the persons understanding is in error. They can use this (like I have in the past) to research and resolve the misunderstanding. or they can continue to ignore the issue that their understanding makes the word of God contradict itself.

that is why the word is so powerful. it interprets itself. and it gives us all a means to check and balance our understanding

No, Because people do not just stop trusting what saved them, and 2nd, again, John said those who stop believing (they deny christ in unbelief) were never saved.

Not sure why you continue to argue against the word.

Eisegesis from men is also powerful. Thankfully, it can't change the Word, but men can and certainly do cloud its interpretation. Hopefully you know by now that you're still learning. As are all of us. If you don't know that, you hopefully will.

I disagree.

the entire discussion is based on the fact that positional sanctification is only assured, if our conditional sanctification takes place. It has always been the case of legalistic view that our justification is based on our sanctification. - ie. we are eternally justified, as long as we continue to grow and do works. if our works stop. or we fail to meet some standard. then our positional sanctification (justification) ceases to exist. and we are lost.

"based on the fact" or based on the premise? Remind me what your view of eternal security is.

 

[studier]

I just go off the word.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

perfected forever is in the perfect tense. a completed action.

being sanctified is in the preseent tense in the passive voice. It is ongoing, and it is not us doing the work. it is God doing the work to us.

I would stop tryign to take credit away from God. just my own personal opinion. But I rest on it.

"I just go off of the word" is most everybody's claim. In reality we go off of how we read and interpret or have been taught the Word - whether accurately or inaccurately.

Thanks for your opinion but it's off-base suggesting I or anybody who interprets Scripture not along the lines you do are trying to take credit away from God. One of the concerns we have is that some of these teachings suggest we do absolutely nothing in the Salvation process. My main concern is that Scripture is translated and understood accurately so we aren't creating our own problems, which we always do.

Perfected/completed forever in the perfect tense requires the next phrase "into/for the continuous/perpetual" for it to mean what you're suggesting. This is where the translators are getting "for all time". Otherwise, the perfect tense only says something was done in the past and the result(s) existed at the time the author wrote.

The present tense can be translated in different ways as we can see different translators doing in this verse. It's not necessary to go through all of this here. The passive voice is definitely here, but this does not preclude other Scriptures like Phil2:12-13 from adding information about the process if this verse is talking about the experiential sanctification process as some translators think it is and others do not.

Earlier in Heb5 the author wrote of being perfect/mature in Christ vs. a child/infant. The concept of perfection is spoken of about 9 times in Hebrews. Are you perfect? Or has the Lord's sacrifice provided forever with God's Salvation Plan perfection for those who are sanctified or for those who are being sanctified or both or those who were sanctified and remain in Christ - as He commands - and go through the sanctification process, or...?

I can not be justified ( a completed action) while I am still being justified.

Our initial justification provides freedom from the imprisonment we were under. Subsequent justifications can be any time a test or trial is implemented (this is how some read James, and others soften it by saying justification before men). To be declared righteous simply means to be vindicated, proven right. The context of its usage must be considered to understand what it's speaking of.

No, Because people do not just stop trusting what saved them, and 2nd, again, John said those who stop believing (they deny christ in unbelief) were never saved.

Again, you're not able to speak for all people of all time in this regard. None of us are.

No offense intended, but I cannot take your word for what Scripture says. Please post any you want to interpret as you are here.

Not sure why you continue to argue against the word.

This is really not an argument. Please do better. If you'd like to discuss any Scripture, please bring it up and hopefully you'll be able to understand my arguments are against your interpretation of the Word.

John said they were NEVER OF US
James said their FAITH WAS DEAD (lifeless, non existant,)

You take of it what you will. I can just go by what they said.

the only soil that produced fruit was the 4th soil.. Non of the rest produced any fruit. so where these soils that never did anythign for God to produce fruit (had no works ever) saved?

you tell me.

13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. (Lk. 8:13-14 NKJ)

The second 8:13 believe for a while then fall away. Fall away from what/whom? Believe so were saved? Saved but no rewards? Believe, were saved, fall away/withdraw/rebel [from belief, from salvation]

The third 8:14 they heard. Did they believe? Did they begin to grow but never completed the production of fruit?

You tell me since you're saying I'm arguing against the Word. If you want a lighter load, explain belief for salvation re: the second soil.

1. show me one person who truly professed Christ like the tax collector. Because they became poor in spirit (spiritually bancrupt) who changed his or her mind and wanted to go back to spiritual bankrupcy and back to being lost.

2. Heb 6. The author was talking to people who wanted to return to the law

according to the law. when you sinned, you had to give a sacrifice to be restored to God. (without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness)

The author is stating a fact , if we fall away (if it is possible) we can not be renewed to repentance. We are lost forever. there is no hope of returning..

and even claiming we could lose salvation (again returning to the law) puts Christ to open shame, because they claim the blood of bulls and goats is more important than the blood of our savior.

Re: Heb6:

• What do you mean "if it is possible"?
  • Is it possible or not?
  • Is "if" a proper translation?
• You're saying that these verses are saying that if we even claim we could lose salvation this puts Christ to open shame???
  • Would you like to go through these Scriptures that are speaking in the context of a rebuke for lack of growth from infancy to maturity and a heads up that God may not permit growth at some point?
  • Where do you get this claim you're making?

We can start there before looking at other Scriptures like Galatians that so greatly concerned Paul that he said many things including Christ would be of no benefit to those who went back to Law (from Grace) - they'd be released/discharged from the Christ - they'd fall from Christ. This is just part of what's said.

so you can not respond to the fact. and you think Gods standard is silly.. noted

Sure, that's what I think. As I said, please do better in your arguments.

Let's begin with any of the Scripture brought out above. Heb6 and Luke8 intrigue me.

 

[Magenta]

So much hot air and hypocrisy blowing around in here...

 

[Inquisitor]

Matthew 7:21-23 makes clear that one can be confident in their relationship with Christ without it being so. That's why we should give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

That does not solve the problem.

If you were not saved from eternity then any diligence towards the Lord is useless!

 

[Cameron143]

That does not solve the problem.

If you were not saved from eternity then any diligence towards the Lord is useless!

I agree. But those in the passage viewed their works as proof of their salvation. Sadly, they were disappointed.

 

[Musicmaster]

So much hot air and hypocrisy blowing around in here...

Case in point...

MM

 

[GWH]

I will agree that the people who stand with hyper-Calvinism are not the problem, given that they don't understand what a monster TULIP makes God out to be, almost always defended on the basis of God's Sovereignty.

The fact is, God is not sovereign in the absolute sense that the TULIP supporters assume. What that means is that the Lord cannot go against His very nature. The belief that the Lord says on one hand that He desires that ALL men come to saving faith in Him, and then turns right around and predetermines who will go to Hell at the exclusion of any choice that would lead to a legitimate responsibility on the part of individuals, that's a negation of the justice presented to us in His written word to us. That also stands as an accusation against the the Lord for doing what He clearly stated is absolutely against His own will for ALL mankind.

But, these objections generally fall upon deaf ears while the adherents hide behind (not a boulder, but rather) the pebble of an assumed, contrived level and definition of sovereignty that is nowhere expressed in the written word of God.

MM

Yes, they never defend their beliefs on the basis of divine love.
(I wonder whether their human fathers were loving witnesses of God's love like mine was?)

 

[GWH]

You need to read on, For the people asked Jesus after Jesus made that comment, what work they had to do. and jesus answered

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Our faith in Christ is the work of God. He draws us, He teaches us, He brings us to repentance. We can take no glory or credit for saving ourselves because we did not do any work of merit.


As them what? Did they make the golden serpent? Did they hang the serpent on the pole? did they raise it up so everyone could see it?

God did all the work and offered it to them for healing. God just asked them to trust him.

What did Jesus say? He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

The ones who did not look were already condemned, Yet grace was offered to them, They rejected him and his offer of grace. Its no different than those who reject the offer of grace today and refuse to look to the cross.

you work to merit a reward or a wage.. Salvation is not something we can merit. it is a gift. paid for in full by the giver, As jesus said, "it is finished" in the Greek literally "paid in full" "Tetelesti"


sorry bro, we do no cooperate with God. that is a catholic ploy.

A gift giver gives you a gift. You have a option to recieve the gift in faith, or to reject it.

Recieve the gift in faith is no you cooperating with the giver, it is you freely receiving the gift the giver paid for.

You reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift.. And that's on you.

The only thing you will earn or merit as far as salvation gospel is condemnation.



If ones understanding inserts a contradiction. then the persons understanding is in error. They can use this (like I have in the past) to research and resolve the misunderstanding. or they can continue to ignore the issue that their understanding makes the word of God contradict itself.

that is why the word is so powerful. it interprets itself. and it gives us all a means to check and balance our understanding




I disagree.

the entire discussion is based on the fact that positional sanctification is only assured, if our conditional sanctification takes place. It has always been the case of legalistic view that our justification is based on our sanctification. - ie. we are eternally justified, as long as we continue to grow and do works. if our works stop. or we fail to meet some standard. then our positional sanctification (justification) ceases to exist. and we are lost.






I just go off the word.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

perfected forever is in the perfect tense. a completed action.

being sanctified is in the preseent tense in the passive voice. It is ongoing, and it is not us doing the work. it is God doing the work to us.

I would stop tryign to take credit away from God. just my own personal opinion. But I rest on it.


I can not be justified ( a completed action) while I am still being justified.

Your right, It literally means to be declared righteous. But in all aspects of # 2, According to Gods commands, I am still not righteous. I am still guilty, because I still fall short of Gods standard (the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life.)

to be justified is the means we are born again. set free from the penalty of sin. declaired righteous. paid in full

by one offing I have been perfected forever.


No, Because people do not just stop trusting what saved them, and 2nd, again, John said those who stop believing (they deny christ in unbelief) were never saved.

Not sure why you continue to argue against the word.



John said they were NEVER OF US
James said their FAITH WAS DEAD (lifeless, non existant,)

You take of it what you will. I can just go by what they said.

the only soil that produced fruit was the 4th soil.. Non of the rest produced any fruit. so where these soils that never did anythign for God to produce fruit (had no works ever) saved?

you tell me.

1. show me one person who truly professed Christ like the tax collector. Because they became poor in spirit (spiritually bancrupt) who changed his or her mind and wanted to go back to spiritual bankrupcy and back to being lost.

2. Heb 6. The author was talking to people who wanted to return to the law

according to the law. when you sinned, you had to give a sacrifice to be restored to God. (without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness)

The author is stating a fact , if we fall away (if it is possible) we can not be renewed to repentance. We are lost forever. there is no hope of returning..

and even claiming we could lose salvation (again returning to the law) puts Christ to open shame, because they claim the blood of bulls and goats is more important than the blood of our savior.

so you can not respond to the fact. and you think Gods standard is silly.. noted

I am just responding to points you make

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Yes, when a gift giver gives you a gift, you have an option to receive the gift in faith or to reject it,
but why do you object to calling receiving the gift cooperating with the giver?

Yes, if you reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift,
and that lack of cooperation is on you--
which regarding the gift of salvation means condemnation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Loss of salvation~~~I trust me, I'm certain YOU would fail.

If faith alone in Christ Jesus and His work on our behalf, is not enough, then you do not have faith in Christ Jesus.

It pretty much is that simple.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I will agree that the people who stand with hyper-Calvinism are not the problem, given that they don't understand what a monster TULIP makes God out to be, almost always defended on the basis of God's Sovereignty.

The fact is, God is not sovereign in the absolute sense that the TULIP supporters assume. What that means is that the Lord cannot go against His very nature. The belief that the Lord says on one hand that He desires that ALL men come to saving faith in Him, and then turns right around and predetermines who will go to Hell at the exclusion of any choice that would lead to a legitimate responsibility on the part of individuals, that's a negation of the justice presented to us in His written word to us. That also stands as an accusation against the the Lord for doing what He clearly stated is absolutely against His own will for ALL mankind.

But, these objections generally fall upon deaf ears while the adherents hide behind (not a boulder, but rather) the pebble of an assumed, contrived level and definition of sovereignty that is nowhere expressed in the written word of God.

MM

God is sovereign Amen.

But as sovereign God. he has the ability to do what he wants.

and if he says only those who freely receive his gift are saved. and those who freely reject his gift are lost. then who are we to question it?

 

[Believer08]

God is sovereign Amen.

But as sovereign God. he has the ability to do what he wants.

and if he says only those who freely receive his gift are saved. and those who freely reject his gift are lost. then who are we to question it?

Try again…hint: nothing you can say proves OSAS. No verse proves any version of unconditional OSAS.

 

[Musicmaster]

God is sovereign Amen.

But as sovereign God. he has the ability to do what he wants.

and if he says only those who freely receive his gift are saved. and those who freely reject his gift are lost. then who are we to question it?

On the one hand I stated that God cannot do what is against His will. Rephrasing that, we can also say that God never wills what is against His nature. I agree with you about freely accepting, or, rather, freely responding to the drawing the Lord extends to ALL of mankind.

So, what this means, then, is the TULIP people have to ASSUME something into God's nature and will that which simply isn't there, in that He allegedly has any will for any man to go to Hell when in fact the Lord stated otherwise in His written word to us. They have such a self-contradictory view of God's nature and resulting will, which is only an evidence of the inner conflicts they have within themselves, not something within God.

All the Rabbis I have ever known or heard who know and understand the scriptures far better than the TULIP followers, they too see this false doctrine of TULIP as having demonic origins. To them, it's about decisive obedience to Torah, which I do not agree with, but their understanding, rooted in ancient understandings, is telling in and of itself.

MM

 

[HeIsHere]

They have such a self-contradictory view of God's nature and resulting will, which is only an evidence of the inner conflicts they have within themselves, not in God.

Their God behaves in a very conflicted manner it seems to me.

 

[Musicmaster]

Their God behaves in a very conflicted manner it seems to me.

That does seem to be the case, although I try to be careful as to where I draw the line of differentiation between the God of the Bible and the plethora of gods that others create for themselves from the doctrines they are taught and have accepted that are contradictory to the scriptures, such as the sacramentalism (works) and the descriptors of Jesus allegedly being so angry that it requires some woman to be the mediator between man and that angry Jesus who is utterly unknown to the scriptures, especially given that we are saved by grace through FAITH, which is absolutely contrary to works having any measure for anything other than rewards.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Thanks, but I have read on many times in many translations and in the Greek. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to receive His gift.

When we come to 6:28-29 we have some translational and interpretive work to do. These translations will show you a few things to consider - basically, what did Jesus mean? BTW, I have no issues with your last paragraph, but it does not erase what Jesus commanded in 6:27.

NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed (work) God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent."

I just went through this language issue on another thread. When we read the word "of" in these English versions we should know that there are 30+ ways to translate the wording in the Greek.

Also, in 6:29 where Jesus' reply begins with "This" He can be pointing forward or backward. So, Jesus can be pointing back to His command in 6:27 to work for the lasting food or He can be pointing forward to the last clause in 6:29.

Also, in the NKJ "that" where I have highlighted it in 6:29 could be the content pointed to by "This" in 6:29 or it could be the purpose of His command in 6:27.

We may not like these facts because we think we have all these things figured out while we sit and argue with each other about what the Text actually says and means, but we should note that translators still work on translations and see details differently as they do the work, which is still going on. I don't wait for the next version to argue about. I translate by myself and compare my findings.

We can go through these choices and paraphrase them if you'd like.

I look at it this way.

If its my work. I can take credit and I can boast in myself and my work.

If its Gods work. he takes credit and he can boast.

and finally. if not for the work of God drawing me to himself. Convicting me of my sin, Convincing me of his truth and his faithfulness. I never would have repented and believed.

so again, It is the work of God that brings us to faith. Not our work. Lest anyone should boast.

6 So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Num. 21:6-9 NKJ)

You asked me a few rhetorical questions. We can let Scripture answer each one of them. After Moses prayed, God answered Him and provided the solution. God commanded Moses and Moses did the work. Moses had to believe God and do what God commanded. The people had to believe God and do what God instructed - they had to look at the serpent on the [raised] pole if they wanted to live.

When we get these interpreted traditions imbedded in our thinking, we tend to eisegete or read past what Scripture actually says.

Or we could just look at it in context of How Jesus used it.

1. He who believes is not condemned (will not perish) Just like in Moses day,. He who believes and looked did nto die.
2. He who does not believe is condemned already. Just like those who did not believe in Moses day did not receive Gods gift of healing, and ended up suffering the death sentence that was given to everyone who was bitten, ie, they were already condemned, and because they did not believe, they suffered their just condemnation.

Notice what seperated the 2. it was not who did work. or who earned it

It was that one in faith reci9eved Gods gift. One who lacked faith rejected Gods gift.

Jesus says unbelievers work for the [spiritual] food (teaching content to believe) that remains into eternal life. If Jesus commands this, and He does, and if Scripture says we don't merit wages to receive the gift of EL He gives, then the work to hear and learn the Gospel and believe, is not meritorious - not worthy of wages.

Actually no. lets get context here. Jesus had just fed 5000 people the day before. here we are the next day. and the people did alot of hard work to follow him. so they could get fed again.

Jesus is telling them not to work that hard to get fed physical food. If your going to do all that walking and hard work. do it to hear the word. which he will give them, which is spiritual food which can give eternal life

so lets not try to add things that are not there.

We just have to let Him explain how Salvation actually works and stop making things up.

So lets do it.

He who believes is not condemned (john 3)
He who believes will never perish but will live forever. (John 3)
He who sees and believes will not come to judgment, but has passed from judgment (co0ndemnation) to life (John 5)
He who Comes to me will never hunger, he who believes will never thirst (john 6)
He who sees and believes will live forever. and be raised on the last day (john 6)
He who believes will live forever. whoever eats the bread will never die) john 6)
It is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and life (eating the bread is taking in Jesus words and believing or trusting in them)

so i do not see the problem here. It is all through Johns gospel.

Jesus is the one who hang on the cross. He sacrificed himself so we can be made alive or set free.. But he will nto force you to take it. He in his loving way, wants you to recieve it.

No person who ever had their life saved by another can take credit for saving themselves. they just allowed the person to save them, or recieved the gift of life given to them.

As Paul said, if it is grace, it is no longer works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

You want to work for grace, be my guess. You will fail

Although tetelestai has a sense that can mean "paid" it is not its primary meaning, which is "finished," "completed."

In Jesus day, A person who was freed aftering paying their DEBT to society, got a written not of tetellesti - Paid in full

Thats what Jesus did on the cross. he paid our debt in full.. We can not add anything to what jesus did to make u=ourselves any more saved. However. we can try to replace his payment by unbelief and try to pay it ourselves (WORKS) and in the end, lose out on Gods grace

The payment for sins can be found elsewhere. Jesus finished the work our Father sent Him to do. He completed God's Salvation plan to the point of His death. After His resurrection that Plan was in place to pass on to us. We did nothing to make the Plan, complete the Plan, make it available to pass on, etc.. It is all of and from God.

This does not preclude Jesus from command unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel. The merit remains with the Planner, the Finisher, and the Giver.

Just let Him speak and explain what He's done and requires of us.

lol. You can work all you want. You will never merit salvation.

lets make that clear.

 

[GWH]

On the one hand I stated that God cannot do what is against His will. Rephrasing that, we can also say that God never wills what is against His nature. I agree with you about freely accepting, or, rather, freely responding to the drawing the Lord extends to ALL of mankind.

So, what this means, then, is the TULIP people have to ASSUME something into God's nature and will that which simply isn't there, in that He allegedly has any will for any man to go to Hell when in fact the Lord stated otherwise in His written word to us. They have such a self-contradictory view of God's nature and resulting will, which is only an evidence of the inner conflicts they have within themselves, not something within God.

All the Rabbis I have ever known or heard who know and understand the scriptures far better than the TULIP followers, they too see this false doctrine of TULIP as having demonic origins. To them, it's about decisive obedience to Torah, which I do not agree with, but their understanding, rooted in ancient understandings, is telling in and of itself.

MM

Re "we can also say that God never wills what is against His nature":

Yes, we can say that, but do we mean God never wills to be evil although He is able to do so?

IOW, we can also say that God's nature is not against His free will.

 

[donnyscot]

At the risk of being repetitive, the confusion comes from the word "saved". It does not mean "going to heaven when you die". We should make a distinction between being born again and the subsequent deliverance that is progressive and a life long experience.

Being born again is instant, is the work of God and requires accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12). Being born again is irreversible. Since it is the work of God, it cannot be undone.

The ongoing "salvation" (better translated deliverance) is the salvation of the soul. (1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21.) This is the work that Lord does and is the point of the Kingdom of God (Luke 4:18). This is partly our responsibility. God will not violate our will, so progress is dependent on our willingness to change. And this is where things can go very wrong.

Some people get angry at God because they don't get their own way. God's ways are no ours. Some love their sin too much to give it up. Some cannot bring themselves to forgive those who have offended them. There are attitudes and actions that hinder our fellowship with God and leave the believer in a kind of no man's land. It's a terrible place to be.

This does not mean that the individual will be sent to hell when they die. It does mean that they will miss out on the rewards that God has in store for those who serve Him well in this life. There is much more to say about this, but it will have to do for now.

I think about this often

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I was taught the anti-Catholic mindset also. Much of it I retain. A few years back I had some discussions with a Protestant who had converted to Roman Catholic. His understanding of Salvation was excellent and puts many here to shame, bro.

I will just come out and say it. If he converted to Catholicism. He does not understand what faith is. It would be alot like a jew. who joined the church, and then reverted back to judaism.

Your understanding of Faith is lacking.

So tell me what my understanding is, I will wait patiently

We're commanded to believe. Our belief is obedience. Things like turning to the Lord and believing are active words, things we do in response to what God requires of us. Receive and reject are actions, like it or not. I've read works where men attempt to make Faith purely passive. Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to hear and learn. Some say Faith Alone. In response others say Faith is never Alone

Jesus offered you eternal life based on his work.

do you trust him?

Merit already covered. God specifies what is meritorious. Men mess it up working too hard to protect against what they say is all error of Rome. Then they commit their own error swinging the pendulum too far in reaction.

Salvation is a gift. a gift is not merited.

so again, if your trying to merit salvation. You are lacking understanding of what true faith is

Eisegesis from men is also powerful. Thankfully, it can't change the Word, but men can and certainly do cloud its interpretation. Hopefully you know by now that you're still learning. As are all of us. If you don't know that, you hopefully will.

Yes I am still learning. but I am told I have in my hand eternal life. I have had it for 40 years now. Because I looked to the cross in faith and received the gift of life. by accepting Gods gracious gift.

I hope you believe this also.. But I am beginning to doubt you do. Hopefully you prove me wrong

"based on the fact" or based on the premise? Remind me what your view of eternal security is.

again, John answers this question.

He who believes is not condemned (john 3)
He who believes will never perish but will live forever. (John 3)
He who sees and believes will not come to judgment, but has passed from judgment (condemnation) to life (John 5)
He who Comes to me will never hunger, he who believes will never thirst (john 6)
He who sees and believes will live forever. and be raised on the last day (john 6)
He who believes will live forever. whoever eats the bread will never die (john 6)
It is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and life (eating the bread is taking in Jesus words and believing or trusting in them)

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [e]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

I can post so many more if I have to. This is what my faith is in, I pray yours is in the same