Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

I know what Rogerg is saying. The problem he has is that the Bible doesn't say what he is saying.

Actually he understands it quite well. He understands that the new covenant is not between God and men, but between God the Father and God the Son. Therefore, all the requirements for salvation were laid upon Jesus to fulfill. He did that over the course of His life, death, and resurrection. Having done so, He sat down at the right hand of the Father and sent forth the Spirit to circumcises the hearts of His people and employs the word of God to make known what He has done on their behalf.
An individual's response to the actions of God are not required for the covenant to be fulfilled. Christ has already done that. Instead, they are the response of an individual who has been made alive in Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

Actually he understands it quite well. He understands that the new covenant is not between God and men, but between God the Father and God the Son. Therefore, all the requirements for salvation were laid upon Jesus to fulfill. He did that over the course of His life, death, and resurrection. Having done so, He sat down at the right hand of the Father and sent forth the Spirit to circumcises the hearts of His people and employs the word of God to make known what He has done on their behalf.
An individual's response to the actions of God are not required for the covenant to be fulfilled. Christ has already done that. Instead, they are the response of an individual who has been made alive in Christ.

And not a scripture saying any of your theory. presented here.

 

[Cameron143]

And not a scripture saying any of your theory. presented here.

Who is the new covenant between?
Read Isaiah, particularly chapters 40 onward. Pay attention to the 5 servant songs and particularly chapters 53-56 and 61-62.

 

[rogerg]

Actually he understands it quite well. He understands that the new covenant is not between God and men, but between God the Father and God the Son. Therefore, all the requirements for salvation were laid upon Jesus to fulfill. He did that over the course of His life, death, and resurrection. Having done so, He sat down at the right hand of the Father and sent forth the Spirit to circumcises the hearts of His people and employs the word of God to make known what He has done on their behalf.
An individual's response to the actions of God are not required for the covenant to be fulfilled. Christ has already done that. Instead, they are the response of an individual who has been made alive in Christ.

Perfectly stated, Cameron.

 

[fredoheaven]

Yes, that is exactly what I am presenting - that man does/can do nothing for it - and that is what makes it precisely by grace. The method He ordained was to give it freely as a gift, through Christ, to those He chose for it. For those so chosen, there is no requirement imposed upon them to retain it - again, it is solely a gift - and this is so because all requirements of salvation had been fully satisfied by Christ as Savior, and they justified by Him.
I am in complete agreement with what @Cameron143 posted above.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The core problem is to try to understand that when one repents and places his faith in Christ alone for salvation is to make it as a form of works of righteousness. Basically, this is false, the Bible says that these are our responsive action to what is being condition. As far as salvation is concerned. Ephesian 2:8 says salvation as the gift of God is implicit condition connotation by the phrase "through faith". This is not really a works of righteousness where one could boast.

 

[Magenta]

The core problem is to try to understand that when one repents and places his faith in Christ alone for salvation is to make it as a form of works of righteousness. Basically, this is false, the Bible says that these are our responsive action to what is being condition. As far as salvation is concerned. Ephesian 2:8 says salvation as the gift of God is implicit condition connotation by the phrase "through faith". This is not really a works of righteousness where one could boast.

Curious to know what you make of the verses that tell us faith is a gift, because there are those here who deny this Biblical fact.

 

[rogerg]

Ephesian 2:8 says salvation as the gift of God is implicit condition connotation by the phrase "through faith".

No.The "faith" of Eph 2:8 represents Christ's faith, not our faith. Christ was perfectly faithful to the Father and the mission given Him.
We are saved by His faith, not ours. If it was our faith that was intended, then the verse would contradict itself.

 

[fredoheaven]

Their actions may have resulted in the nation of Israel being saved, but nevertheless, their title was judge, not Savior, nor did they claim to be such. Not so with Christ. No one else in the Bible was given that specific title by God nor could anyone else claim it. In this case, the earthly should not be used as a standard to measure or assess things spiritual. Therefore, the comparison you make is inappropriate. Notice in verse 9 below that it is Jesus alone who "hath saved us" and that we contributed nothing to it - that it is a gift given fully by Him, according only to His purpose and grace.
In the spiritual sense, the Savior cannot claim to be the Savior if He is not the one who saves fully and completely. It is not within
the power of earthly man to contribute to that.


[2Ti 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Christ indeed abolished death and hath brought life through the gospel and that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe it. Hence, the believing part as responsive action to the gospel is not basically a works of righteousness so he could boast. Believing Christ and his works on the cross is not tantamount to a work based salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Christ indeed abolished death and hath brought life through the gospel and that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe it. Hence, the believing part as responsive action to the gospel is not basically a works of righteousness so he could boast. Believing Christ and his works on the cross is not tantamount to a work based salvation.

Yes, it is. Not only is the acquisition of faith a work, but it is God's work alone to achieve on our behalf, thereby making it a gift,

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[PaulThomson]

I'll repost for clarity:

[2Ti 1:9-10 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

This only says that we were not saved based on our record in terms of works. The worst behaved and the best behaved persons are equally called and saved. God does not call only the top 25%.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This says he saved us not out of works (ex ergOn) we have done, the same as the previous text. The quality of our works before being called does not determine whether we are called.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

For to/for/in/by grace (chariti) you are having been saved through faith (dia pisteOs), and that (that you are having been saved to/for/in/by grace through faith) is not out of yourself (that method was not your idea) it is the gift of God (God thought it up and offered it freely to us.)

None of these say what Rogerg and you are reading into them.

 

[PaulThomson]

A spiritual Savior, not an earthly savior - we are discussing eternal salvation, correct? Remember, I said that you shouldn't assess things spiritual by the earthly:

" In this case, the earthly should not be used as a standard to measure or assess things spiritual. Therefore, the comparison you make is inappropriate"

Special pleading is a logical fallacy.

 

[rogerg]

This only says that we were not saved based on our record in terms of works. The worst behaved and the best behaved persons are equally called and saved. God does not call only the top 25%.

Agreed. Ranking (whatever that might mean) plays no part in it whatsoever - look at Saul/Paul for example. God saves whosoever He chose, based solely upon His divine perogative and good pleasure, and for no reason other than He chose them.

This says he saved us not out of works (ex ergOn) we have done, the same as the previous text. The quality of our works before being called does not determine whether we are called.

It says we become saved solely because of His mercy. Since based upon His mercy, our works, or lack thereof, play no part in it.

For to/for/in/by grace (chariti) you are having been saved through faith (dia pisteOs), and that (that you are having been saved to/for/in/by grace through faith) is not out of yourself (that method was not your idea) it is the gift of God (God thought it up and offered it freely to us.)

I dunno, sounds to me like what we've been saying - that salvation is given as a gift in all of its forms.

None of these say what Rogerg and you are reading into them.

I think they do say that. Seems there is a fundamental difference with the way you perceive salvation occurring and the way we perceive it (hope you don't object to my saying we @Cameron143 since you stated it so appropriately. But if you do, please feel free to correct me). So, with this fundamental divide, I don't think our points of view, as of now, are reconcilable.

 

[fredoheaven]

No.The "faith" of Eph 2:8 represents Christ's faith, not our faith. Christ was perfectly faithful to the Father and the mission given Him.
We are saved by His faith, not ours. If it was our faith that was intended, then the verse would contradict itself.

No you said but tge fact is the phrase " through faith" is consistently, manisfested as mens faith as in Ephesians 1:15 says "Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus...". Again the nearest antecedent is The word "ye" in reference to mens faith in Eph. 2:8. Our faith in Christ saves us.

 

[rogerg]

Special pleading is a logical fallacy.

huh? There is the spiritual and there is the earthly. These two are completely different things. Notice, in the below verse, that it does not
say "comparing the earthly with the spiritual", but " comparing spiritual with the spiritual". Since salvation is eternal, it is of the spiritual, not of the earthly.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[rogerg]

No you said but tge fact is the phrase " through faith" is consistently, manisfested as mens faith as in Ephesians 1:15 says "Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus...". Again the nearest antecedent is The word "ye" in reference to mens faith in Eph. 2:8. Our faith in Christ saves us.

That is a different subject than Eph 2:8. The faith in view in Eph 1:15 is the faith given to those saved/born again by God - recall John 6:29 - but that is not the faith that brings salvation but is from salvation: Christ's faith saves; our faith in Christ comes from God as His gift to us. All requirements of/for salvation have been satisfied by Christ. That is why He is the Savior.

 

[fredoheaven]

That is a different subject than Eph 2:8. The faith in view in Eph 1:15 is the faith given to those saved/born again by God - recall John 6:29 - but that is not the faith that brings salvation but is from salvation: Christ's faith saves; our faith in Christ comes from God as His gift to us. All requirements of/for salvation have been satisfied by Christ. That is why He is the Savior.

I woud suggest you need to consider the background of the context in John 6:29, the work of God is to provide meat which endures unto everlasting life and not as people to labour for their own meat. This mear is provided by Christ himself, hence our response is to believe on hm whom the Father sent.

 

[fredoheaven]

That is a different subject than Eph 2:8. The faith in view in Eph 1:15 is the faith given to those saved/born again by God - recall John 6:29 - but that is not the faith that brings salvation but is from salvation: Christ's faith saves; our faith in Christ comes from God as His gift to us. All requirements of/for salvation have been satisfied by Christ. That is why He is the Savior.

Yet still this did not disproved the nearest antecedent which "ye" offers as reference to men's faith and not to represent Christ faith as per Eph. 2:8. Thanks

 

[rogerg]

I woud suggest you need to consider the background of the context in John 6:29, the work of God is to provide meat which endures unto everlasting life and not as people to labour for their own meat. This mear is provided by Christ himself, hence our response is to believe on hm whom the Father sent.

Yeah, actually I've heard that rational before, but I don't think the verses you mention apply to 6:29.
6:28 logically begins a new discussion between them by asking Jesus to know the works of God.
Jesus's reply, in 6:29, in effect, is saying there is no work they can do - that it all God's work.

 

[rogerg]

Yet still this did not disproved the nearest antecedent which "ye" offers as reference to men's faith and not to represent Christ faith as per Eph. 2:8. Thanks

The "ye" pertains to the "saved"; the "faith" to the gift; hence the "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". If the gift was "not of yourselves" but was the "gift of God", then it was impossible for the faith to have been theirs.
Hope that makes sense - I didn't state it too well. If not, I can explain further if you'd like

 

[fredoheaven]

The "ye" pertains to the "saved"; the "faith" to the gift; hence the "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". If the gift was "not of yourselves" but was the "gift of God", then it was impossible for the faith to have been theirs.
Hope that makes sense - I didn't state it too well. If not, I can explain further if you'd like

"ye" describes the people' faith relative to the subject faith is concerned in Eph. 2:8. How they are saved, yes is through faith. You said " the faith to the gift" implies the faith of men to God's gift of salvation. "For by grace are ye saved..." speaks how people get saved not that it pertains to the saved and how, it is " through faith". Again whose faith is that? It's mens faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.