Understanding God’s election
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According to @Rufus that "poof" took many years and many attempts. I wonder why God waited so long or had to make so many passes at it before He poofed Rufus. It certainly couldn't have anything to do with Rufus. How about you - how long did it take before God poofed you?
With all honesty, as best I can piece it all together it took God about 30+ years before He could "poof" me. We may be a lot stronger than we think - we elect who withstand God trying to force us to believe while we prodigal around the earth and finally steal and eat one too many pig's meals.
With all honesty, as best I can piece it all together it took God about 30+ years before He could "poof" me. We may be a lot stronger than we think - we elect who withstand God trying to force us to believe while we prodigal around the earth and finally steal and eat one too many pig's meals.
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DBY Acts 13:48 And those of the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as were ordained to eternal life.
NKJ Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NET Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.
ESV Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
NAS Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of 1the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
KJV Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
NIV Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NLT Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
YLT Acts 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
This is a TULIP stronghold. As usual, there are arguments against the TULIP view. The translators are pretty consistent, even those who reject TULIP.
What say we?
NKJ Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NET Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.
ESV Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
NAS Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of 1the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
KJV Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
NIV Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
NLT Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
YLT Acts 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
This is a TULIP stronghold. As usual, there are arguments against the TULIP view. The translators are pretty consistent, even those who reject TULIP.
What say we?
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It may have taken you 30+ years to grow in the awareness of it- and for many that is also true - for me too -
yet, the receiving of that awareness is not always simultaneously to it occurring - one a result of a change of spirit; the other, a renewing of the mind that follows after it.
yet, the receiving of that awareness is not always simultaneously to it occurring - one a result of a change of spirit; the other, a renewing of the mind that follows after it.
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I don't follow you. It seems to me that most, if not all, of those verses are saying their belief was a result of having been chosen (or ordained) to eternal life, from/by which, they came to believe. That was my point - that true belief is an outcome of having been chosen by God to eternal life.
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Your contention is that I carried a new spirit for 30+ years of prodigality without or apart from hearing or paying attention to the Gospel of Jesus Christ or believing Jesus is the Christ or without knowing what "Christ" means or without accepting His resurrection as truth? So, God did just force me apart from my knowledge or choice at some unknown point at some unknown age?
Rom12:1-2... is clearly about the renewing on the mind after we are in Christ. Do you see this otherwise?
Rom12:1-2... is clearly about the renewing on the mind after we are in Christ. Do you see this otherwise?
I'm agreeing with you that this verse seems to say what you think it does. I'm also saying your interpretation has been challenged by others who disagree with TULIP.
I'm wondering if any have knowledge of the reasoning of the challenges. I'm wondering what we all think of the verse and if anyone wants to take a shot as to why this may not be saying what Calvinists think it says or means.
For instance, and very basically, 13:45 says some Judeans were opposing what Paul was saying and were blaspheming - 13:46 says they reject the word/message of/from God and thus judge themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, pursuant to Isaiah and God, Paul & Barnabas turn to the Gentiles.
So, is there some contrast being set up here in 13:48 that assists us in understanding the meaning of the verse other than the obvious fallback of non-elect Judeans vs. elect Gentiles?
Are there other legitimate translations rather than "appointed" or do the verb tenses assist in any way? Is the operative word ever used specifically in regard to election?
Again, some learned men say there are reasons this verse does not substantiate election. Others say it does. Are you willing or able to get deep into the verse and context to resolve the debate? Are any of us? Who will change anyone's mind?
I'm wondering if any have knowledge of the reasoning of the challenges. I'm wondering what we all think of the verse and if anyone wants to take a shot as to why this may not be saying what Calvinists think it says or means.
For instance, and very basically, 13:45 says some Judeans were opposing what Paul was saying and were blaspheming - 13:46 says they reject the word/message of/from God and thus judge themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, pursuant to Isaiah and God, Paul & Barnabas turn to the Gentiles.
So, is there some contrast being set up here in 13:48 that assists us in understanding the meaning of the verse other than the obvious fallback of non-elect Judeans vs. elect Gentiles?
Are there other legitimate translations rather than "appointed" or do the verb tenses assist in any way? Is the operative word ever used specifically in regard to election?
Again, some learned men say there are reasons this verse does not substantiate election. Others say it does. Are you willing or able to get deep into the verse and context to resolve the debate? Are any of us? Who will change anyone's mind?
I kind of thought you did agree with that. It seems like you don't think much of the Gospel or that you place it somewhere in the process much differently than others see the Word doing.
Just to be clear, because I'm not certain I understand what you're meaning, the renewing of the mind is part of a command to Christians who know they are Christians. These verses in Romans are not part of some process where Christians who do not know they are Christians are having their minds unknowingly renewed so they can realize they're Christians. If the terminology is meaningful to you, these verses are related to the Experiential Sanctification of Christians.
Just to be clear, because I'm not certain I understand what you're meaning, the renewing of the mind is part of a command to Christians who know they are Christians. These verses in Romans are not part of some process where Christians who do not know they are Christians are having their minds unknowingly renewed so they can realize they're Christians. If the terminology is meaningful to you, these verses are related to the Experiential Sanctification of Christians.
I don't have the mental energy to get into a deep debate about anything, including what I'm having for lunch.
I will say however that I have heard people try to reverse the verse to say because they believed, they became appointed to eternal life,
but I don't think that is logically possible because for it to mean that, it would have had to have an entirely different phrasing, for example: ".... and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life", not how it was phrased.
I will say however that I have heard people try to reverse the verse to say because they believed, they became appointed to eternal life,
but I don't think that is logically possible because for it to mean that, it would have had to have an entirely different phrasing, for example: ".... and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life", not how it was phrased.
Understood. I have similar times about many things I no longer want to think about. Thankfully getting deeper into the Word I still have energy for, because most of the rest outside of His thinking is not of much or any interest anymore.
I understand how both sides interpret the verse, and I have some thoughts of my own.
I understand how both sides interpret the verse, and I have some thoughts of my own.
I don't think much of the Gospel? Really? I can't think of anything further from the truth. I place and base it upon its centerpiece: Jesus Christ - that He, and He alone is the Savior who gives salvation. Man cannot give it to himself. Do you agree? Everything I post comes from and goes to that truth. Can a completely corrupted mind renew itself? What is there for it to do so? No, it is completely dependent upon external intervention for that transition, and it can only be from God, so it had already to have occurred for Paul to have made that statement, otherwise, it would be meaningless and unfulfillable by those to whom Paul was addressing.
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Do you agree with her then, when she says God is unfair? And think it a fine sentiment to ascribe to God also, the
attributes of being an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their "free" will if He acts unilaterally?
The will she claims is free while taken captive to the will of the devil and a slave to sin?
Funny how many times Scripture can say the natural man can neither receive nor hear nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, but you lot think that with the corrupt heart and hostile-to-God mind, poof, someone is just going to decide to believe that which is foolishness to them. So foolish. With the heart one believes. You have the corrupt heart bringing forth the good fruit of faith.
Maybe one day you will understand that is not possible.
Maybe one day, you will believe Jesus.
attributes of being an unjust tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their "free" will if He acts unilaterally?
The will she claims is free while taken captive to the will of the devil and a slave to sin?
Funny how many times Scripture can say the natural man can neither receive nor hear nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, but you lot think that with the corrupt heart and hostile-to-God mind, poof, someone is just going to decide to believe that which is foolishness to them. So foolish. With the heart one believes. You have the corrupt heart bringing forth the good fruit of faith.
Maybe one day you will understand that is not possible.
Maybe one day, you will believe Jesus.
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Scripture says darkness cannot comprehend the light. And since you seem not to
know it, I should also add that Scripture refers to the natural man as darkness.
Now I wonder if you even know who the natural man is. Many have not a clue...
He is the one who cannot hear nor receive nor understand the spiritual things of God.
Many here ascribe to the natural man characteristics and abilities only the spiritual man possesses.
know it, I should also add that Scripture refers to the natural man as darkness.
Now I wonder if you even know who the natural man is. Many have not a clue...
He is the one who cannot hear nor receive nor understand the spiritual things of God.
Many here ascribe to the natural man characteristics and abilities only the spiritual man possesses.
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John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8, John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.