The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[GWH]

I have always been amazed at people who assume obedience to Jesus is works salvation..

Well, I was never taught to view obedience as saving/conversion faith extending moment by moment into eternity.

 

[PennEd]

@PennEd, sorry Ed, but you’re on ignore…I can only suspect that you are trying your hardest to prove the false doctrine of the wheelhouse hamster doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy….except nothing that you can say will prove it…

Don’t be sorry at all!

I can hardly blame you. It’s very difficult to effectively push a works salvation doctrine to mature believers that wouldn’t dream of trampling on the Blood of Christ by pushing His insufficiency in keeping His Children saved.

 

[Kroogz]

That is what I used to think until a few days ago someone on CC prompted the following insight:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living/persevering (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (RM 1:17).

That is the "statement" From my response. Word salad.

Absolutely no clue about sanctification, fellowship, discipline, reward, reign, rank, crowns.......Just a One trick pony.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

Amen

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s not that the branches were never in him they didn’t abide in him and bear fruit so they were taken away by God removed and burned up because they didn’t bear the fruits

“For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The earth that bears the herbs meet for the one who planted and is tending it receives blessing. But the earth that produces no fruits only briars and thorns it’s near to cursing and its end is to be scorched.

 

[Believer08]

Yes, and the way to escape the loop is via this insight:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living/persevering (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (RM 1:17).

I sorta knew this from what HB says about God's Sabbath Rest, but I had not connected it in this manner/per this logic.
(divinely inspired? :^)

Perhaps this’ll help:

It’s not our works of righteousness that saves us (Titus 3:5). It’s the righteousness commandments/works of God that do (Ps. 119:172, Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 17:30, Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 2:21, Col. 2:12, Acts 2:38, Jms 2:24). It is faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).

The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere, Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)

Take God's grace out of the equation, for just a minute. Now, how much would faith save or avail?

Now, take away faith, have only God's grace. Would anyone be saved without a faith that obeys/works?

We are to “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43). Not “continue in sin” (Rom. 6:1).

Continuing in His grace would be to “continue in the faith” (Acts 14:22; Col. 1:23).

Grace has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21).

I believe God’s grace/goodness makes the unworthy, worthy. We are told to walk worthy (Eph. 4:1; Col. 1:10; 2 Thess. 2:12; cf. Rev. 3:4), and God’s grace helps us to do that.

Every command God gave is by His grace. They are rooted in His grace. The Bible is filled with grace from cover to cover. They are grace-given commands, teachings, etc etc.

Paul says “remembering without ceasing your work of faith..” 1 Thess. 1:3

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. (Jn 6:29)

There are differing kinds of works which so many people downright refuse to accept.

But none of these are our own works that we devised or came up with. God lovingly gave those works/commands for us. They are of God, because He gave us them. As we obey them, we are allowing Him to work in us (Phil. 2:13), as they are His works/commands that He lovingly and graciously gave mankind to have salvation.

Humble surrender to God's will as revealed in His word shows total dependence on God and not on oneself. A faith that works is one that is centered on doing the will of God.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Yes with the words "they were never of us"
Yes.


John is an amazing apostle.. The first 7 chapters of John is full of eternal security, and the 1st epistle ends with Johns words that we can not we have eternal life..

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

If salvation can be lost. we can not know we have eternal life.

I trust Jesus,the bringer of the Good News of Salvation. He said we cannot lose our Salvation.
Which means we are sealed as believers within the assurance if the covenant that tells us our Salvation brings us into eternal life.

If Salvation could be lost I don't think it would qualify to be called, eternal Salvation. Yet,it is said so in the Bible.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

[Believer08]

No one knows who is “truly saved” in the belief of MODERN OSAS…

Just like the definitions of atheism and intolerance have changed by atheists and hardcore liberals, most people of OSAS have also changed the classic and true definition of OSAS…

 

[Lamar]

My point is in reality another came in and bore the debt completely and HE had no debt of HIS own.

Therefore the parable is not about a losable salvation.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
And I mean that sincerely.

 

[Musicmaster]

@Everlasting-Grace, I’m through with this thread…as it accomplished its purpose. It proved how OSAS does not have a leg to stand on…and proved the “never saved” argument as one of desperation…when they discover and realize their doctrine to be false. It also proved how it’s an emotional doctrine…as well as it being outright dishonest with verses…as well as accusing others of something they are or are not. The eternal security of believers is found in the scripture, but not the impossibility of apostasy (which is what OSAS teaches)…it also proved how it is inconsistent…and offers no kind of comfort or hope to those who were once saved..only to be told they were never saved…and it leaves others questioning their own salvation…if they are consistent. It also proved how it is a doctrine of circle conversations. Much more can be said…but I’ll leave it at that.

False victories by any other name are still false victories. Your lack of any desire to hear what everyone else say who doesn't agree with you, and who even showed to you point blank from the scriptures how wrong you are...yes, this thread accomplished its task in showing that you had no intention of changing away from what you believed.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

We all can see the horrid confusions that result from basic failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

The confusing cacophony from the toxic mixture of what was TO Israel and what was TO the body of Christ, this thread shows the result.

That some can't seem to figure out Paul being separated out from the other eleven as THE apostle to the Gentiles, who preached the Gospel the Lord intended to be directed TO the Gentiles and Jews alike who were not going to be saved under the Kingdom Gospel put on hold, the resulting division is indeed sad.

MM

 

[GWH]

Never heard of, nor seen Dad fail to retrieve any of his Prodigals.

What question?
.

Are you born again?
(How so?)

Do you want to remain reborn?
(How such?)

 

[studier]

I

One could hope that the following insight would resolve the OSAS endless loop:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living/persevering (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (RM 1:17).

This answers that retort: isn't this "works salvation"? (NO!:^)

Is there a faith that accepts grace at conversion but ultimately may not accept grace in walking?

If faith is always non-meritorious how are wages and rewards applied?

 

[Believer08]

We are not saved by works they say…but saving faith will produce works they say…but if you don’t have works then that just goes to show you were never saved they say…therefore, they are making works essential.

 

[studier]

I have always been amazed at people who assume obedience to Jesus is works salvation..

I wasn't always amazed because I was taught not to be. Then I studied the Text. Obedience is associated with Salvation from beginning to end. So is Faith. Neither are merited works.

 

[studier]

Well, I was never taught to view obedience as saving/conversion faith extending moment by moment into eternity.

Elaborate please. Not taught obedience = saving/conversion faith??

 

[studier]

The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.”

Scriptures?

As we obey them, we are allowing Him to work in us (Phil. 2:13)

Might ask about this next.

Humble surrender to God's will as revealed in His word shows total dependence on God and not on oneself. A faith that works is one that is centered on doing the will of God.

No questions about this. The first sentence is a good explanation of Faith, especially when attached to the second sentence as you've done here.

 

[GWH]

Perhaps this’ll help:

It’s not our works of righteousness that saves us (Titus 3:5). It’s the righteousness commandments/works of God that do (Ps. 119:172, Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 17:30, Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 2:21, Col. 2:12, Acts 2:38, Jms 2:24). It is faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).

The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere, Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)

Take God's grace out of the equation, for just a minute. Now, how much would faith save or avail?

Now, take away faith, have only God's grace. Would anyone be saved without a faith that obeys/works?

We are to “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43). Not “continue in sin” (Rom. 6:1).

Continuing in His grace would be to “continue in the faith” (Acts 14:22; Col. 1:23).

Grace has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21).

I believe God’s grace/goodness makes the unworthy, worthy. We are told to walk worthy (Eph. 4:1; Col. 1:10; 2 Thess. 2:12; cf. Rev. 3:4), and God’s grace helps us to do that.

Every command God gave is by His grace. They are rooted in His grace. The Bible is filled with grace from cover to cover. They are grace-given commands, teachings, etc etc.

Paul says “remembering without ceasing your work of faith..” 1 Thess. 1:3

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. (Jn 6:29)

There are differing kinds of works which so many people downright refuse to accept.

But none of these are our own works that we devised or came up with. God lovingly gave those works/commands for us. They are of God, because He gave us them. As we obey them, we are allowing Him to work in us (Phil. 2:13), as they are His works/commands that He lovingly and graciously gave mankind to have salvation.

Humble surrender to God's will as revealed in His word shows total dependence on God and not on oneself. A faith that works is one that is centered on doing the will of God.

That seems right to me! :^)

 

[studier]

yes, this thread accomplished its task in showing that you had no intention of changing away from what you believed.

Have you seen a thread that is any different in this respect?

 

[Believer08]

@GWH How does one know whether one is “truly saved” in today’s version of OSAS?

 

[studier]

We are not saved by works they say…but saving faith will produce works they say…but if you don’t have works then that just goes to show you were never saved they say…therefore, they are making works essential.

The flow seems to make sense.

Some don't even agree with the second clause.