The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Musicmaster]

It doesn't matter who believes what about their own salvation. What matters is where one places his faith. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 clearly states that belief in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ Jesus, they are saved. If that's "easy believeism" in some people's thinking, then that's nothing but lazy intellect, because believing in Christ and what He accomplished on that cross is not a matter of "easy believeism". Those who claim it's too easy to believe Paul's gospel is a matter of "easy-believeism" are generally those who believe in works-based salvation, which can save nobody today.

Getting dunked in water, that doesn't save anyone. Saying the incantation spell of a prayer doesn't save anyone. God looks upon the heart, and that is where the faith rests as to if its genuine or not. Thinking that one can DO things to retain their salvation...again, that's works-based salvation which saves nobody.

MM

 

[Believer08]

None of us know what impact our words may have on others but when falsehood goes unchecked sin does also.
I hope that in some small way, my defense of the Gospel will have a positive affect on some soul.

Agreed. When one is not wanting to be honest with what their belief or doctrine teaches, then there is a problem. OSAS’ers do not. I think it’s funny how they accuse people of misrepresenting OSAS when they misrepresent those who do not. I also find it hilarious how they won’t apply their own belief of never being saved, yet they have no problem applying that to others.

 

[Believer08]

@Lamar, do you know why people who believe OSAS always say so and so was never truly saved in the first place?

It is because they HAVE to say that. If they do not, then they realize that their man-made doctrine CRUMBLES!!!!

They have it being IMPOSSIBLE for a saved individual to trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace, yet, the Holy Spirit who inspired the writer of Hebrews said it happened!!!

Heb. 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

To be SANCTIFIED BY the BLOOD of the COVENANT is CLEARLY referring to someone who was SAVED, but NOW is LOST.

If someone is sanctified by the blood of the covenant, then it’s referring to Jesus’s NEW COVENANT that He shed His blood for many for the remission of sins!! (Mt. 26:28)

Yet, in all their dishonesty, to continue believing in their precious heresy of OSAS, they will be dishonest with the verse (and every other verse) and explain it away!!

They will either say 1) That’s not what it means or 2) That doesn’t apply to us, or 3) That person was never saved.

They also have it IMPOSSIBLE for brethren who is a BELIEVER, to become an UNBELIEVER, and to DEPART! But once again, we have it happening!!

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in DEPARTING from the living God.

“Take two people supposedly saved by faith and who are in the osas camp. They will say that the evidence that they've been saved is their faithfulness. And suppose they're the same in that - attendance, making changes in their lives, Bible study, prayer, involvement, etc. But after a couple of years, one of them begins to slack up a bit and finally falls away. They will say that he was never saved to begin with. So they toss out the evidence that proved to them that he was saved in the beginning, the very same evidence that they used to say that the other person who remains was saved initially.

Quite often, our friends will be quick to say this person or that person was never saved in the first place without stopping and thinking if they are actually the one that was never saved.”

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I’m arguing against those you DO believe and have BIBLICAL EVIDENCE that they DO BELIEVE, but are now said to have NEVER BELIEVED!!! Even though they had the SAME EVIDENCE at one time as YOU DO!! Thus, your argument of NEVER BEING SAVED APPLIES TO YOU!!

But you are not wanting to be consistent…

And what evidence you do you have that they were born again, children of God?

And why do you argue against John. John said a person who rejects christ has never been saved.

Again, you’re arguing against the word. Not me.

 

[Believer08]

If you’re figuring “once saved, always saved” is a rock-solid confirmation that you’re definitely going to heaven… well, maybe you’d better talk to those Christians who totally believe this too, yet are in constant agony that maybe they aren’t saved. Because if these “ex-Christians” believed in their heart with absolute genuine assurance they were saved and they never were, what assurances do they have? Or, really, you?

To say a professing Christian who turns away from God to wickedness was never saved is also to teach you can never know if anyone is a Christian brother or sister, including the preacher himself who taught you this never a Christian absurdity. Maybe he is just a false convert too.

Their doctrine would have us believe another's salvation can't be known as long as one remains alive, because as long as they remain alive they might apostatize and thereby prove they were never saved. If you can't tell if another is a Christian [because if they depart they were never saved] then you can't consider someone to be a preacher, Bible class teacher, youth minister, etc etc.

Misuse of I John 2:19 (the passage does not say that those who went out never belonged to "us", only that they did not at the time of going out) can't paper over the nature of the argument.

 

[Believer08]

It is a false conclusion to suggest that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on planet earth that fell away were NEVER saved!! It is a TWISTED and SICK conclusion to come up with. That is the ONLY thing people who holds the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy can say to keep their belief from CRUMBLING to shreds, but it crumbles to shreds regardless!! It’s the classic pick-and-choose Bible buffet to form a doctrine. The SAME PERSON that was told they cannot lose salvation will be the SAME PERSON that was told if they lost it they NEVER HAD IT. That makes ZERO sense. You CANNOT LOSE something you NEVER had. It is a WEAK and DESPERATE argument that one uses for desperation to keep OSAS from falling apart. The truth is, they were saved according to the belief in OSAS, and now of all of a sudden they NEVER were. To be told you were always saved all while being told you were never saved…not much assurance whatsoever.
Someone falling away was "never saved" makes no sense. The very idea of saying you fell away because you weren't saved is illogical. If you weren't saved in the first place you fell from nothing.

 

[bluejean_bible]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

I think we will always find ourselves judging those who leave the fold. We do so from our own personal attachment to the doctrine we cling to personally. And that judgement is our responsibility.

Whereas Jesus told us, of all the father gives him he shall lose none.

We may think we know. While Jesus assured us, it is only God who has the last word.

 

[Believer08]

What 1 John 2:19 teaches is they are not of the saved anymore in what they believe or practice due to their departure, it has been made manifest by their teaching. They are no longer joined to the doctrine of Christ, and as the result of that, it can no longer be said that they belong to us, because to belong to us would mean to continue and belong to the doctrine that we are enjoined to, which would be the doctrine of Christ, and to be enjoined with the doctrine of Christ would in essence be enjoined to the church of Christ since that is His doctrine.

John did not here write of the false teachers that "they NEVER had been of us," but that at an unspecified previous time, they were not. This is even more clear in the last clause where the word is not that they had NEVER been of us, but that they are NOT of us. Their departure from the faith became final at some point prior to their leaving; but there is NO suggestion by the apostle that those who departed had NEVER been truly converted at the beginning of their Christian association.

A person could be a loyal patriot to a country, change, become a traitor, and no longer be of the loyal supporters of a country, because they bo longer continue with them. A person can be a faithful Christian, change, & go out from among the people of God because he is no longer of the people of God as he was earlier. Jesus speaks of people who would fall into this category in Luke 8:13, But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Believer08]

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:37

Notice the phrase “comes to Me” in that verse. If anyone becomes lost it is because they casted themselves out by no longer coming to Jesus. 3000 on Pentecost, for example, that came to Him, He didn't cast any of them out. He didn't refuse forgiveness to any of them.

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:39

“the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The words “believes in Him”. What happens if someone no longer believes in the Son?

In order to have eternal life and never perish we must continue to follow Jesus, as well as continue to believe in Jesus not to be casted out. In that same chapter….many of Jesus disciples walked with Him no more (John 6:66). They were at one time walking with Jesus, but did not walk no more. Also, the same person (Jesus) that said John 6:37, 39 also said to continue in my word (John 8:31). Therefore, the ones that Jesus will not lose or cast out are those who continue to come to Jesus, continue in His word, continue to believe, continue to walk with Jesus, and continue to follow Jesus. Those will be the ones that will not be cast out who will have everlasting life.

 

[Musicmaster]

The works-based salvation gang continues to spout their nonsense, never responding to the challenges scripture offers as rebuttals to their false doctrines.

MM

 

[Believer08]

To be saved, y’all believe one must believe Jesus is Lord, the Son of God, believe He resurrected from the dead, repent of an ungodly lifestyle, correct?

When one believes in Jesus and is living according to His holy divine authoritative word, bearing fruit, being extremely devoted, etc etc would you consider them saved or NEVER saved? I’m not talking about someone who NEVER did these things. And I’m not talking about someone who is living a double life..I’m talking about someone who has the SAME exact biblical EVIDENCE of being a true follower of Jesus Christ. Would you consider yourselves to be saved? Ok, then when someone else has the same evidence of having genuinely and truly being saved as you would believe of yourself, would they be saved or never saved?

Surely, y’all would say they are saved….but the moment they depart…all that evidence that they had of being saved..which is the SAME EVIDENCE y’all currently have at this very moment goes COMPLETELY out the window!!!

The same evidence y’all point to y’all’s own conversion is considered FAKE evidence for the one who is now said to be NEVER saved in the first place, despite the fact that these individuals had previously done EVERYTHING that all of you would point to as evidence of your own conversion!! And they are now classified as not only Christians today, but they had NEVER been Christians in the first place!!!

This leads to y’all not EVER knowing who is a Christian or not, and I do not care what y’all say, as there is no way getting around it!!

So, how do any of you who believe in OSAS know y’all are also NEVER saved? Is it because y’all believe? Is it because y’all live for Jesus? Is it because y’all trust God’s word? Is it because y’all follow Jesus daily? Is it because y’all put all your trust and hope in Jesus to save? Etc etc…
Name it, and I will find someone who will say they also did who are now said to be NEVER saved.

If a soldier had the SAME evidence as others of being a soldier, would anyone say they were NEVER a soldier in the first place if they go rogue, despite having the SAME evidence as the others has? If they are never a soldier, then that means all the others are never soldiers since they have the same evidence.

Point I’m making is (which many REFUSE to understand) if they had the same evidence and are never saved, then on what basis can ANY of you say y’all never saved as well? Again, if you point to your conversion, fruit, living godly, putting trust in Jesus, etc etc, then that will be wrote off to be fake evidence, just like it was for others.

If a someone had the SAME evidence as you of salvation, would anyone say they were NEVER saved if they depart, despite having the SAME evidence as YOU? If they were never a Christian, then that means all who have the same evidence as you are also never saved.

Anybody with common sense and logic will be able to understand how foolish OSAS is, as well as the ole “never truly saved in the first place”

And this is why no one who believes in OSAS can have true security, no matter what they say.

 

[Musicmaster]

To be saved, y’all believe one must believe Jesus is Lord, the Son of God, believe He resurrected from the dead, repent of an ungodly lifestyle, correct?

That is a straw man argument, because it doesn't at all represent the beliefs of all who have accepted Paul's Gospel as that which is relevant for us today. Those who think they are a part of the Kingdom Gospel, and that such will save them through works-based achievements, then go for it, which is nothing but a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

The tact of antagonistic misrepresentations of the beliefs of others, that proves nothing in your favor.

MM

 

[Believer08]

However, I do believe in the eternal SECURITY of the Christian believers who FOLLOWS Jesus. This is based on not only obeying the passages that teach that it is CONDITIONAL to remain saved, but also because of such passages as 1 Jn. 5:13; 1 Peter 1:5; Rom. 8:1, 38-39; Eph. 1:13; Heb. 6:19; Jd. 1:1, 24; Jn. 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, etc etc.

Even people who believe in OSAS will unwittingly admit that salvation is conditional when they say they are never saved. They are making it conditional on one’s lifestyle to the faith, because if they don’t have that, they’d be told they were never saved!! Thus, OSAS is false!! Thus, even OSAS is conditional!!!

Once saved always saved is the false doctrine that teaches it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to be lost. It teaches the impossibility of apostasy. Some even believe there’s not a sin one can commit to cause one to lose their soul to be damned.

The eternal security of the believer, however, is found in the scriptures, but NOT the way Reformed or Protestant theology teaches.

The BIBLICAL view of eternal security is the sheep who FOLLOW the good shepherd (Jn 10:27, 14). All who FOLLOW will be given eternal life and will never be snatched/plucked (v28-29). This promise is for those who follow Him (v27). Hence, it is CONDITIONAL.

In Christ, there is now no condemnation to those who WALK ACCORDING to the SPIRIT (Rom. 8:1). Another condition. Walk according to the Spirit. This promise is for those who are seeking to be justified and kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). Through faith is another condition.

When one continues to be justified by faith through the gospel, they will be kept by God. There is not enough power in hell to stop the person from having eternal life who is bent on wanting eternal life. That person will not devote their life to sin, but to Christ. That person will not seek sin, but seek Christ. That person will set their affection on things above, not on things on the earth (Col. 3:2). There is security for this type of person. This person has blessed assurance. This person is looking to the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). This person is walking in the light (1 Jn 1:7). This person is being led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). This person is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). This person is letting the power of the gospel and the word of God enrich their souls (Rom. 1:16).

When we continue to let the seed, the word of God, (Luke 8:11) (which Paul also refers to it as the sword of the Spirit) (Eph. 6:17) reign and rule over our lives by keeping it in our hearts, then we are kept by the power of God through faith, because our faith is working by love (Gal. 5:6). This person can know they have eternal life based on the word of God (1 Jn 5:13; Jn 6:63, 12:47-50). The way God keeps us from stumbling is when we let His word abide in us (John 8:31, John 15:7). When one looks to Jesus and allows Him to reign over their lives as King of kings and Lord of lords, they will be preserved in Jesus (Jude 1:1), and eternally secure.

No external force has the power to remove us from the love of God when we walk according to the Spirit, as that would also be following Jesus (Rom. 8:1, 38-39; Jn. 10:27; Jn. 16:13). When one is believing in Jesus and “hearing” His word, they will not come under condemnation, but pass from death to life (Jn. 5:24). This isn’t a one time thing, as we are to continue to believe in and hear Jesus’ words by looking to the Spirit’s sword.

We must have faith based on evidence of God’s word being true that the Spirit seals us. That is a PROMISE (Eph. 1:13). But we have to be hearing and believing. Hearing and believing means trusting in Jesus alone for salvation, which is believing on Him (Acts 16:31, 8:37-38), confessing He’s Lord (Rom. 10:9-10), believing the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4), repenting and being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and living godly (Titus 2:12).

We are to have confidence in the One who saved us and continues to save. There is security in Christ, the good shepherd, and that security is eternal when one obeys Him (Heb. 5:9). God wants us to know without a shadow of doubt that we are saved and that we know we have eternal life. When one stops basing their trust in themselves for salvation, but in Christ alone, then they need to keep trusting in Jesus. They can know they have the hope of having the promise of having eternal life (Titus 1:2; cf. 1 Jn. 5:13) and have security in Him. When one is living for Jesus, bearing fruit, and having the Christian godly virtues, they will never fall as to be lost (Mt. 7:20; Gal. 5:21-22; 2 Peter 1:4-11).

Yes, there is eternal security for the believer who continues to believe in, look to, trusts and seeks to live for Jesus Christ.

KJV Jer. 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

KJV Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

KJV Ps. 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

KJV Ps. 62:1-2 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.
2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

 

[Believer08]

We discover that this belief of OSAS offers no security or comfort at all when it is considered and followed logically. It is a popular doctrine because the “comfort” that it brings, but upon further examination of this horrible belief, it actually provides no comfort at all. We have exposed the lies of OSAS. False doctrines always contain lies when examined and exposed.

 

[Musicmaster]

However, I do believe in the eternal SECURITY of the Christian believers who FOLLOWS Jesus. This is based on not only obeying the passages that teach that it is CONDITIONAL to remain saved, but also because of such passages as 1 Jn. 5:13; 1 Peter 1:5; Rom. 8:1, 38-39; Eph. 1:13; Heb. 6:19; Jd. 1:1, 24; Jn. 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, etc etc.

Even people who believe in OSAS will unwittingly admit that salvation is conditional when they say they are never saved. They are making it conditional on one’s lifestyle to the faith, because if they don’t have that, they’d be told they were never saved!! Thus, OSAS is false!! Thus, even OSAS is conditional!!!

Once saved always saved is the false doctrine that teaches it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to be lost. It teaches the impossibility of apostasy. Some even believe there’s not a sin one can commit to cause one to lose their soul to be damned.

I'm not sure how you define your use of the term "christian," so there's no real way of addressing that portion of your comments.

Under the works-based Kingdom gospel, one could indeed lose their salvation:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That same gospel will once again become active in the tribulation period, for those who take the mark will also be lost for all eternity.

We today who believe in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ Jesus, we are SEALED by Holy Spirit. All you works-based people out there...who knows. We, however, are SEALED, and the Lord is not so wimpy as the belief is within those who believe they can lose their salvation. You works-based gospel people who don't believe in the sealing of Holy Spirit, that's to your detriment:

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So, you works-based people, you really should get on board with the word of God for what it says and leave behind the false teachings of your pastors who teach otherwise.

MM

 

[Believer08]

@Musicmaster, sorry, but your responses do not refute my position or prove OSAS. You are also set on ignore. Good day.

 

[bluejean_bible]

The works-based salvation gang continues to spout their nonsense, never responding to the challenges scripture offers as rebuttals to their false doctrines.

MM

Do you have examples you might share to provide better understanding for what you mean to say there?

 

[Kroogz]

@Kroogz, You have NO SECURITY in your belief!!! You would consider yourself NEVER SAVED to begin with if you end up departing!!! Of course, you will say you will not, as I’m sure many others did as well who are now deemed NEVER SAVED!! I hope you don’t depart, otherwise, at this VERY moment, you are NEVER SAVED!!

Person A to OSAS’er: Are you saved at this very moment?

OSAS’er: Absolutely. In fact, I’m not just saved at this very moment, I’m once saved always saved.

Person A: But if you depart from your belief, then does that mean you were never saved?

OSAS’er: Some would say that about me, sure.

Person A: So, the whole entire time you believed you were saved you were lost?

OSAS’er: Yes. I guess I was…

Person A: So then it’s possible for someone to believe they are saved and not be?

OSAS’er: Sure..it happens all the time.

Person A: Then when would you know for sure whether you or anyone were actually saved then?

I have departed from the faith. I have fallen from grace. I have been cut off........But I NEVER lost my salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

You can say that, sure, as did all the others who were deemed never saved.

Show me ONE scripture that says..." They were never saved."

Many like to use verses to try to say that.........But NONE do.

I say you are saved. You say you are not?

 

[Believer08]

Show me ONE scripture that says..." They were never saved."

Many like to use verses to try to say that.........But NONE do.

I say you are saved. You say you are not?

sorry, but your responses do not refute my position or prove OSAS. You are also set on ignore. Good day.