The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Believer08 said:
The truth would be that a Christian can indeed fall away.
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Eternal life is eternal. if it could ever stop being eternal (if it can be lost) it is not eternal.

A person who has the gospel can fall away having never trusted the gospel. but a child of God can not stop being a child of God

But you don’t want to admit that so you will just say they were never saved. Every Christian you know is never saved then.
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lol.. Your right, I will nto admit a lie is the truth

Concerning the false argument if OSAS, it is also false to accuse one of earning salvation.
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thats like saying its a farse that the gift your father gave you is still a gift. although your father is making you pay for it. or he will take it away

You are decieved in thinking your not trying to earn salvation.
 
Believer08 said:
So that others (who are not involved in the convo) can see the truth who might be viewing it or who come across it. Other than that, I suppose it’s time to bow out from them.
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None of us know what impact our words may have on others but when falsehood goes unchecked sin does also.
I hope that in some small way, my defense of the Gospel will have a positive affect on some soul.
 
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Y’all can call my arguments flawed, accuse me of misrepresenting OSAS, and accuse me of contradicting, etc etc, but the fact remains is people who believe in OSAS are NOT consistent at all in what they believe, and there is NO ASSURANCE for the one who believes that.
 
Believer08 said:
@Everlasting-Grace, a person who is a Christian who becomes an Antichrist does is a liar that they are a faithful Christian. They are not lying about at one time being a faithful Christian if and when they got saved biblically. God’s word is not a lie. If one gets saved biblically, they are saved. For those who become antichrists, then are erring Christians in need to repentance.
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1 John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Your argument is with john.

They went out from us, but were never of us, they were never a true part of the church, they were never saved.

who?

people who deny christ.

remember these people were in the church. they at that time said they were believers. now they deny christ.

they did not lose salvation, THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

Your arguing with the word of God my friend. and you will lose every time you do that
 
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Believer08 said:
Y’all can call my arguments flawed, accuse me of misrepresenting OSAS, and accuse me of contradicting, etc etc, but the fact remains is people who believe in OSAS are NOT consistent at all in what they believe, and there is NO ASSURANCE for the one who believes that.
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Prove I am not consistent.

All you have done is falsely accused me and others. You have proved you do not even know what we believe.

so bring your charges against us. I have refuted everything you have brought against me so far. keep it up and I will continue to refute your lies.
 
I appreciate Sam Morris annd and Bill Foster actually being consistent and honest with OSAS…something no one in this thread will. I wonder why?

Sam Morris: We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul! The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul… All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debt he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform, will not make his soul one wit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger… The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul.” (From: A Discussion Which Involves a Subject Pertinent to All Men).

Another man, named Bill Foster, said, “If I killed my wife and mother, and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to hell – in fact, I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to. If, on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn’t do it.” (From: The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).
 
Magenta said:
Somehow I doubt it but if you want to think that go right ahead. You are determined to deny and contradict 1 John 2:19.
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You have admitted that no one can know anyone else who is saved, so, you do not know if the people who you worship with are saved when they are once saved ALWAYS saved? Again, you have proved my point about there not being no security in OSAS.

I do NOT deny 1 John 2:19. What I deny is YOUR interpretation to expand it UNIVERSALLY to EVERY person who says they are a Christian, who now does not live like one, yet..you said you do not know anyone else who is saved, but you have no problem knowing who are lost.

Being consistent, if YOU stop being a Christian, then at this very moment YOUR belief about 1 John 2:19 would apply to YOU.

Your own belief has you NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!!!
 
Believer08 said:
I appreciate Sam Morris annd and Bill Foster actually being consistent and honest with OSAS…something no one in this thread will. I wonder why?

Sam Morris: We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not damn his soul! The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul… All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debt he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform, will not make his soul one wit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger… The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul.” (From: A Discussion Which Involves a Subject Pertinent to All Men).

Another man, named Bill Foster, said, “If I killed my wife and mother, and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to hell – in fact, I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to. If, on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn’t do it.” (From: The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).
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here is your probloem.

stop listening to men, and what they think, and ask the people themselves.

A child of God is a new creature

1. Sin is poison to them, Before he was saved, he loved his vomit (as a dog) now that he is saved, Sin tastes like vomit and it is spewed out.

2nd, the HS chastens those who are his, who can withstand chastening.

3rd. a child of God realises the cost (the cross) so the guilt of sin can become overbearing and overburdening.

A child of God can not live in sin (again see the epistle of John)
 
Believer08 said:
You have admitted that no one can know anyone else who is saved, so, you do not know if the people who you worship with are saved when they are once saved ALWAYS saved?

Again, Your argument is flawed.

we can not know who is saved and who is not.. so we can not know who has eternal security and who still needs saved.

Your barking up the wrong tree my friend, if you refuse to hear the argument, you will keep getting everything wrong.
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Every person who believes in OSAS are NEVER TRULY SAVED!!! If it applies to one who is no longer a Christian, then it applies to when they WERE a Christian!! As they are now said to NEVRR HAVE BEEN ONE!!

If any of you depart you will be told YOU WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

There is NO security in that belief!!
 
Believer08 said:
You have admitted that no one can know anyone else who is saved, so, you do not know if the people who you worship with are saved when they are once saved ALWAYS saved? Again, you have proved my point about there not being no security in OSAS.

I do NOT deny 1 John 2:19. What I deny is YOUR interpretation to expand it UNIVERSALLY to EVERY person who says they are a Christian, who now does not live like one, yet..you said you do not know anyone else who is saved, but you have no problem knowing who are lost.

Being consistent, if YOU stop being a Christian, then at this very moment YOUR belief about 1 John 2:19 would apply to YOU.

Your own belief has you NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!!!
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It is unfortunate but it seems that your comprehension of what other people say suffers greatly .. because I most definitely did not say that nobody could know whether somebody else is saved or not... I was simply addressing the fact that the verse under discussion is not talking about other people... It specifically says that we can know we have eternal life which equates to knowing that we are saved... but sadly you cannot acknowledge that either ... for some reason you are bent on simply lording your own opinion over others and over what Scripture actually says.
 
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Believer08 said:
Every person who believes in OSAS are NEVER TRULY SAVED!!!
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Ok now. your just judging, keep this up I will report you.

There is NO security in that belief!!
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John writes. i write these things to you so you may know you have eternal life. and that you may continue to believe

Our security is in the promises of God. not in our good works, or bad works, or our worthiness. Our ability to continue to believe is empowered by our security in him.
 
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Believer08 said:
Every person who believes in OSAS are NEVER TRULY SAVED!!! If it applies to one who is no longer a Christian, then it applies to when they WERE a Christian!! As they are now said to NEVRR HAVE BEEN ONE!!

If any of you depart you will be told YOU WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

There is NO security in that belief!!
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Can you prove your point? How can one lose his salvation? Where does scripture teach that for those of us under the Gospel of Grace?

MM
 
Everlasting-Grace said:
who is considered never saved? But a person who does not believe. and as the word says, they are condemned already..

again, Your argument is flawed. what are you arguing against?
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I’m arguing against those you DO believe and have BIBLICAL EVIDENCE that they DO BELIEVE, but are now said to have NEVER BELIEVED!!! Even though they had the SAME EVIDENCE at one time as YOU DO!! Thus, your argument of NEVER BEING SAVED APPLIES TO YOU!!

But you are not wanting to be consistent…
 
Magenta said:
It is unfortunate but it seems that your comprehension of what other people say suffers greatly .. because I most definitely did not say that nobody could know whether somebody else is saved or not... I was simply addressing the fact that the verse under discussion is not talking about other people... It specifically says that we can know we have eternal life which equates to knowing that we are saved... but sadly you cannot acknowledge that either ... for some reason you are bent on simply lording your own opinion over others and over what Scripture actually says.
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I most definitely can KNOW I am saved. You, on the other hand, cannot, as you would say you were NEVER saved the whole time you believed you were!! You would rather give an opinion about others than to be consistent with what God’s word says.
 
If any one who believes in OSAS departs, they will be told by their OSAS pals that they were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!!

If it applies to one who is no longer a Christian, then it applies to when they ARE a Christian!! As they are now said to NEVER HAVING BEEN ONE!!

If any of you depart, you will be told YOU WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

There is NO security in your belief!!
 
According to 1 John 2:19, the evidence that they were not saved is that they leave.
Imagine you were at disciple of Jesus, an apostle, a writer of a gospel and multiple epistles, and have seen the risen Christ in all His splendor. Even given all this, the only way you know that someone is not "of us" is when they depart.
 
@Kroogz, You have NO SECURITY in your belief!!! You would consider yourself NEVER SAVED to begin with if you end up departing!!! Of course, you will say you will not, as I’m sure many others did as well who are now deemed NEVER SAVED!! I hope you don’t depart, otherwise, at this VERY moment, you are NEVER SAVED!!

Person A to OSAS’er: Are you saved at this very moment?

OSAS’er: Absolutely. In fact, I’m not just saved at this very moment, I’m once saved always saved.

Person A: But if you depart from your belief, then does that mean you were never saved?

OSAS’er: Some would say that about me, sure.

Person A: So, the whole entire time you believed you were saved you were lost?

OSAS’er: Yes. I guess I was…

Person A: So then it’s possible for someone to believe they are saved and not be?

OSAS’er: Sure..it happens all the time.

Person A: Then when would you know for sure whether you or anyone were actually saved then?
 
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Y’all have proved my point about OSAS…that it is dishonest with scripture and with the doctrine itself (because y’all don’t want to be honest about it), that it is not able to know who else is saved (no matter what y’all say), that it goes with emotions rather than God’s word, and that it gives a false security for people who identify as Christian. Taking consistently, it is also a comforting doctrine to be able to live in sin. Thanks for proving my point!!! My work here on this is done.
 
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